question for RowingMom

After 6 months of bartonella abx, Dr P trialled Cowden along with rifampin (she discontinued biaxin). The herbs included only samento and banderol, none of the other Cowden herbs now used for bart were included. I'm not sure Cowden was even selling houttuynia at the time. Not knowing what I now know about herbs, I didn't question her suggestions.

This trial ended in an eventual relapse (after 3 months) and subsequent reinitiation of biaxin. Obviously samento/banderol were not as effective as biaxin had been in K's case.

We used BW's A-Bart pretty much all throughout abx treatment. It was very hard getting K to a sufficient dosage (20 drops 3x daily), because it caused huge herxing issues (shin and foot pain, headache, raging all within 20 minutes of dosing).

Eventually, however, we made it to that dose and remained there for 8 months. A-Bart was weaned when abx were weaned.

In order to properly get going with Buhner's protocol, I stayed away from A-Bart until we had the entire protocol going at what I felt to be a good, non-herxing dose (which was and still is 1/4 of his recommended dosages for adults - K is 13 years old and 110 lbs). At that point I tried reinitiating A-Bart which resulted in immediate and significant herxing yet again.

Obviously 8 months of A-Bart, along with multiple combo abx had not gotten K to the point where she was no longer herxing from 3 drops of A-Bart. I'm not sure if this was because Dr P didn't use any of the BW detox remedies - I have no explanation. I gave up on it because it seemed to do nothing but cause herx reactions.

Over the period of the next 8 months or so, K's remaining bartonella symptoms gradually started improving (from the 80% improvement we had gotten with abx). Something I hadn't seen with the extended use of abx. The addition of CSA, red root, cilantro and Diatomaceous earth cleared up the rest (well, along with mostly organic food and plenty of fermented vegetables to help support gut flora and thus immune response).

Because K herxed with a babesia herx when CSA was initiated (air hunger, chest pressure, sighing, dry cough, thigh pain - all symptoms she had never had before), Dr P then clinically diagnosed babesia-like-organism and gave me the option of treating with pharmaceuticals. I declined. I wanted to give Buhner a longer try and it has paid off wonderfully.

If you go to Buhner's facebook page he has a list of other herbalists trained in his protocols.

https://www.facebook.com/stephen.buhner

1) I no longer see clients for herbal consultations. I recommend the following people: Julie McIntyre in Silver City, New Mexico ([email protected]);

2) Tommy Priester in Lincoln, MA ([email protected]);

Gordon Medical Associates in Santa Rosa, CA ((707) 575-5180);

and Tim Scott in Brattleboro, VT (Toll free: 877.591.1874 In VT: 802.246.1090)


We used Japanese knotweed throughout abx treatment to reduce die-off induced inflammation and it seemed to work well. I could pull her out of increased neurological symptoms by doubling JK dosage for a day or so. At that point we were using both the WoodLandEssence tincture (1/4 tsp 3x daily) as well as 1stChineseHerbs powder in infusion (1/4 tsp 3x daily). Many children who suffer from autoimmune PANS/PANDAS symptoms find good results with anti-inflammatories. I chose JK over the suggested Motrin.

When I realized we would be weaning abx after 2 years, I initiated sida acuta to cover the discontinued pharmaceuticals as we weaned off. I then introduced the other herbs after weaning was finished.

If you are interested in K's protocol/symptom Excel charts that I recorded for Dr P throughout her treatment (and am still recording), please contact me through e-mail, I have temporarily enabled it.

Hi Rowingmom-

I have read a lot of your very informative posts over the last few months, and your perseverance simply amazes me.

I am very happy that you and your daughter are now doing well.

I began Bartonella/Lyme treatment back in August and seem to be doing okay, given a few set-backs here and there.

My LLMD does not do herbs, but I began them on my own in addition to my abx protocol.

I was using Houttuynia from Nutramedix, but want to try something a tad stronger, and read your posting about the powdered tea from FCH, which I actually just this evening ordered.

My questions for you regarding this is did you use the tea in conjunction with abx, or after you weaned off the abx protocol? And does the tea taste like fish once infused and cooled? Not that I really care, if it proves to be effective long-term.

Thanks much.

Jeannie

Hi Rowingmom - thank you for your reply.

I guess we are all different in that our bodies and chemical make-up respond to each thing differently.

I received the tea from FCH today, which was wonderful because I am down to my last few drops of Houttunyia from Nutramedix. I followed the directions exactly as you stated in a previous posting - the four ounces of boiling water and the 3/4 tsp of tea. Let cool while covered, then measure a third of the mixture into a shot glass and drink.

I have been on abx plus Nutramedix for a combination of three months, so I decided to begin with the dosing you had suggested. With Nutramedix, I am up to 30 drops twice a day, and also Burbur and Pinella @ ten drops each twice a day. With each glass I feel a herx within no more thirty minutes.

This afternoon after I drank the tea, I was expecting a powerful herx, but did not feel a thing and it has been more than two hours. How long were you drinking the tea before you and/or your daughter felt anything? I am a tad disappointed, to say the least, because I now have to pay to return this stuff and in the interim wait for a shipment of Nutramedix.

If you feel waiting a few days or a week before I give up, then that is fine, but from what I have read, this is supposed to be a pretty powerful product, yet it does absolutely nothing for me.

Feeling deflated and disenchanted. :(

Thanks in advance for all of your help and advice and for taking the time to help.

It was a week or so before we herxed. And it was not fun - Palpitations, anxiety attacks; at first I had no idea what was going on because we had been doing so well....

Stay at that low dose for a couple of weeks. You will still be killing bacteria, only at a rate that your detox system can handle. After that, if you still have had no response try increasing a little. If you read Buhner's book you will see that he recommends dosages at higher amounts than we will ever be able to tolerate. Maybe you can.

Herxing is not necessary to get well. It should only be an indication that the protocol is working and that dosages need to be decreased. Too much inflammation (ie. herxing) is not good for anyone trying to heal.