Dangers of Cat's Claw and immune boosting herbs

I listened to this talk today from the Lyme Disease Summit, Kevin Conners has an interesting perspective that I hadn't heard before.

His perspective is that there are 3 phases of Lyme disease:

Phase 1 is acute - Very recent bite, best treated with antibiotics.

Phase 2 is chronic - Many wind up here if antibiotics aren't administered immediately or for a long enough duration.

Phase 3 is autoimmune - The chronic patient can eventually produce antibodies to their own tissues due to Lyme and other bacteria going intracellular. Once this happens he states that taking immune boosting herbs is actually detrimental as it stimulates the body to attack and damage its own tissues.

His perspective is new to me but it makes a lot of sense. Based on my own experiences I had come to view the Buhner herbs as mostly immune stimulating rather than directly antibacterial. I've also come across a lot of anecdotes of post-treatment Thyroid disease from people who primarily used these herbs.

I'm not trying to be overly alarmist. I think the Buhner herbal protocol has many benefits including cytokine remodulation. However for "Phase 3" Lymies that have gone autoimmune it could be doing more damage than good.

He recommends doing an antibody panel from Cyrex Labs to determine autoimmune status: /www.cyrexlabs.com/

Here's the link to the talk, it's free to listen to until the end of today:
chroniclymediseasesummit.com/kevin-conners/

thanks project. i recently did some research on buhner's bartonella protocol and what i found is practically all of them are either antibacterial/microbial or cytokine modulation. cat's claw is an immune booster but that's not part of his bart protocol.

antibacterial/microbials are:

Sida Acuta
Isatis
Houttuynia
Alchornea
Japanese Knotweed

I realized that I didn't remember all the various details Buhner shared about the herbs he recommends. I continue to re-read his books...and I continue to learn new things.

I'm sorry to say that I think Kevin Connors is misinformed about Cat's Claw....and a good number of the Buhner-recommended herbs I quickly Googled just now.

It hit me that Buhner divides his new Lyme protocol into categories....one of which is immune remodulation - not stimulation.

Remodulation (balancing) of the immune system is achieved with adaptogens.

Cat's Claw, Ginseng (Eleuthero) and Gingko Biloba are all adaptogens...as are Ashwaghanda and Schisandra.


Here are some links to back this up:

www.naturalnews.com/032917_cats_claw_herb.html

"Cat's Claw can be taken in capsule, tea, or tincture forms. It is an adaptogenic immune regulator. So it provides both immune boosting and dampening as necessary."

"Using Cat's Claw can benefit almost any autoimmune or inflammatory issues"



List of 6 adaptogens:

www.motherearthnews.com/natural-health/adaptogens-zamz08jjzmcc.aspx


I'd need to research all of the herbs but, again, since Buhner uses the term "immune remodulation", I'm thinking the herbs he recommends do not stimulate the immune system but, instead, balance the immune system....not everyone understands the difference.

So much to learn. Contradictory information feels discouraging! I think I'd be considered to be in the autoimmune phase...diagnosed with RA last December. :(
I'm doing Buhner's Protocol (Cat's Claw included) and feeling better!

I've seen many things that Mike Adams has gotten wrong through the years...his site is often inaccurate and alarmist. I subscribe to his posts but take it with a grain of salt.

cd3764 said...
I Googled the herbs I listed along with "adaptogen" and there were so many sites using the two together that I felt comfortable.

To be honest I'm a bit skeptical of the adaptogen label being applied indiscriminately these days. I agree that herbs are complex and can potentially have different effects depending on the state of a person's system. I don't think this means that they will automatically have the exact effect that is needed especially in the case of a damaged immune system.

Breaks are often advised for adaptogens such as Maca and Siberian Ginseng so clearly they aren't modulating themselves magically:

"Long term use of stimulatory nutrients can lead to withdrawal problems and addiction. Though they might have other concurrent adaptogenic properties, many adrenal supportive nutrients commonly used are intrinsically stimulatory in nature in a setting of advanced adrenal weakness"
/www.drlam.com/articles/7mistakesofadrenalfatigue.asp

This article might shed more light on the matter:

"Stimulation of the Immune System by the Herb Uncaria Tomentosa (Cat's Claw)"
Australian Journal of Medical Herbalism
Volume 21 Issue 3 (2009)
search.informit.org/documentSummary;dn=185237035081921;res=IELHEA

Also found:

"People with autoimmune diseases, skin grafts, tuberculosis, or those receiving organ transplants should not use cat's claw unless specifically directed by their physician because of its possible effects on the immune system."
umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb/cats-claw

These mainstream hospital herb database things tend to err on the conservative side, but still.

I think I'm going to try to just focus on killing the Lyme directly and give my immune system a break.

Post Edited (project) : 4/7/2016 9:14:22 PM (GMT-6)

I think that interview will be available until 9am tomorrow.

I really hope I'm not the 3rd type. I wonder if those tests are accurate?

Project

I have to thank you again for posting this. While I don't agree with Kevin Conner's categorization of cat's claw, the reminder about not overstimulating the immune system is always good.

With that in mind, it was because of your post that I've decided to taper off Monolaurin. I've been taking it since January of last year for many reasons - a few related to these infections: to help with Lyme/Bart and also as a Candida preventative.

Monolaurin is an immune stimulant and I'd already been planning on transitioning down/off some parts of my current treatments.....and I always said I'd go off the immune stimulants first.

Your post made me realize it's time.....thank you.

What a great conversation. I am sure I'm stepping into ph 3.

And now I understand why my LLMD's nurse was nervous about me taking an immune support supplement longer than I should have (they forgot to tell me to stop taking it). At the time I was confused by her explanation but that talk clarified it.

I don't think I'm taking any other immune support but I'm sure going to look.

Thanks so much for posting!

-p

As important as this is to people with real autoimmune issues...............its seldom talked/written about.

My LLMD never mentioned this, knowing I have Hashi (and other autoimmune.). This Dr is all about treating the gut since thats where immunity lies and is partially done by not just "gut suppliments" but all body immune boosting supplements too. .....Hey, wait a minute........

These Drs............I tell ya !!! Errrrrrr.

Even colostrum boosts immunity, but you never hear about it being bad for autoimmune. Am I missing something here? I took monularin too. And a mushroom mixture. So this was bad without me knowing it was?

I am really surprised at the lack of info on this. If this is the case , it should be known more. Again, seldom mentioned in articles.

What confusing are the marketing/labeling words used on these products.

Now "Immune Renew" - is a potent immune system supporting formulation with Astralagalus extract........................."immune recharging mushrooms"

Has Turkey tail, sun mushroom, maltake, cordycepts, lions main, reishi and shiitake.

Also says it enhances Natural Killer cells and T-cells.

I took this for two weeks and did not notice anything.