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I Believe Stephen Buhner Is Wrong ... The Evidence:

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Posted 5/17/2016 4:37 AM (GMT 0)
I feel a lot of us already know that treating bartonella can cause a herxheimer reaction .. But having just read Stephen Buhner's book, I must say that it seems that he is wrong .. Here's what he has to say:

"Herxheimer reactions during bartonella infection, if they exist, would seem to be occurring from something other than bartonella cellular death. For it is generally the lipopolysaccharide that is released during cell death that causes the toxic reactions known as herxing. Some people do have periodic bouts of what they call herxing, usually in response to antibiotics. The nature of the bacteria doesn't lend credence to the herxing from bartonella. One thing to keep in mind however: Those antibiotics you are taking ? they don't just kill bartonella. They kill a lot of other things as well"

.

Now, here is a quote, and link, to a medical report on a definite herx due to treating bartonella .. In this case, the 19 y/o girl presented with eye / vision issues and other symptoms .. The diagnosis of bartonella was made, rifampin and doxy started, and it was ONLY HER VISION ISSUES that became worse - the herx reaction was not systemic, which is evidence that the antibiotics were NOT hitting something else ..

Paradoxical response following initiation of therapy is also known as Jarisch–Herxheimer reaction (JHR) and both Jarisch and Herxheimer observed this reaction in patients suffering from syphilis who were being treated with mercury. It is now described in association with a variety of microbial infections, such as borreliosis, trichinellosis, Q fever, leptospiral infections, brucellosis, typhoid fever, and myalgic encephalomyelitis. It is classically described as being a systemic inflammatory response syndrome characterized by fever, chills, headache, myalgia, and exacerbation of skin lesions. No systemic involvement occurred in our patient; however, this reaction was limited to the deterioration in visual functions........ To our knowledge, this is the first report of a paradoxical reaction occurring in a patient with ocular bartonellosis

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3302997/

If Buhner is correct, and bartonella does not release a toxin, then what causes this herxheimer reaction ??

I appreciate all the info Stephen Buhner puts out there, but this makes me question some of his other opinions ... He has changed his mind about treatment with artemisinin, which I question .. Artemisinin is absolutely proven to be effective on parasitic infection like malaria and babesia, and the fact that none of the herbal companies Buhner endorses sell artemisinin makes me question why he no longer recommends it ...

Maybe I am being too cynical, but I think he is very wrong about bartonella ...

Post Edited (Tommy08) : 5/16/2016 10:41:29 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/17/2016 4:58 AM (GMT 0)
His take on muscle testing is intersting also...he is a herbalist a ok one but idk...art can be toxic in high doses to liver and nuero...he is just being safe ..which in lyme is funny in of itself. This may spark a debate ..at least he tryed to help us ..it has helped peps who dont want cant do abx but is it really clearing infections ..or helping syptoms subside ...i have incorperated a lot..chinese cats claw helped with twitches. .Andrographis is good stuff.etc etc..
Posted 5/17/2016 1:38 PM (GMT 0)
I don't think anyone has ever claimed Buhner was infallible in every opinion he has, only that he's incredible in his wisdom with herbs to treat these infections. With Lyme treatments being the cutting edge of science, many doctors/researchers are "going out on a limb" to try to do all they can to help us - that's why we are finally getting good information we can actually use to heal.

" I appreciate all the info Stephen Buhner puts out there, but this makes me question some of his other opinions ... He has changed his mind about treatment with artemisinin, which I question .. "

I'm really sorry that you are losing faith in those that are trying to help us, many have had to change their opinion/stance on different things as new information is discovered. If you allow a new discovery and a change in opinions/recommendations really make you question them, you will have to question every doctor out there - except the IDSA/CDC, who won't change their stance on these infections no matter what science is presented to them. Personally, I'm grateful for the help and courage of these doctors that are working to help us, and the fact that they aren't like IDSA & CDC and stick to the "old news" no matter what is a bonus, not a negative. At least they understand that this is a developing science and new information will be found that will require them to change their opinions/recommendations in order to stay accurate and current.

Another thing, on this forum at least, we have said that Bartonella itself causes some kind of die off reaction for many people - we don't only look at the science, we live it, so of course we can confirm these things that go on inside our bodies. It may be proven one day that it's not an actual die off like Lyme, but many of us know that it triggers something like a die off/herx reaction.

When I started herb only treatments, Buhner was not known at all. I didn't even come across his site while I was researching herbal treatments for Lyme to be honest and I spent months researching it. The protocol that I ended up using had artemesia annua in it, and I stayed on it a full 12 months of daily use. So that's not a hard fact, something that happens to every person every time.
Posted 5/17/2016 3:46 PM (GMT 0)
Points very well taken Traveler, and I do think that Stephen Buhner is one of the "good guys" in all of this .

But the "us vs them" mentality can be a very slippery slope, and I feel that a lot of what is going on with the anti-CDC side can be just as misleading, and even dangerous .

There have been documented cases of patients dying from systemic candida infections when being treated by doctors ( LLMDs) with IV antibiotics .. Some of the clinics that charge tens of thousands of dollars for "detoxing" have been exposed as scams .. And while this is an undeniably serious issue, there are fear mongers out there ( esp in Florida, if you know who I mean ) that have caused more problems than good ( .. this quote coming from a doc I first saw years ago ... She had person knowledge of what Dr S was all about, and even though she herself was an ILADS member, she said Dr S should be ashamed for what he has done )

And as I sat and listened to my current LLMD - the talk of "lyme conventions" and the booths hawking new products, and the events afterwards, I was struck with the sickening notion that a lot of these doctors are now begining to see themselves as celebrities, where promoting themselves and the products they endorse has overtaken the desire to actually help the people suffering ..
Posted 5/17/2016 4:09 PM (GMT 0)
First of all, I don't want anyone thinking that this is some type of argument. I believe that Tommy and I are only having a very interesting conversation! Who knows, maybe we all will end up learning some stuff?

""us vs them" mentality can be a very slippery slope" - very much agreed! I'd love for everyone to be on the side of just getting people healed! All of this bickering over things that can be proven scientifically should stop.

I am careful to support those claims of wrong doing by the CDC that I can back up - because I'm challenged about them all the time (not here, on other forums/places). The CDC very clearly sees the issues, yet refuses to concede that chronic Lyme is real and that IDSA treatment standards are not only ineffective, but out dated. But, I'm not above being corrected and learning more - I hope! :-)

Yes, I know exactly what you mean about the so-called holistic doctors that are doing harm as well as the regular doctors that deny all cases of Lyme (which is what happens here where I live) and allow people to live with chronic, ongoing infections, and doing physical harm because they often prescribe steroids to those very same patients. Every doctor knows that steroids are not to be given if there is a suspected infection. Doing nothing at all or turning them away when a patient comes into their offices begging for help, is not helping or "doing no harm". By turning a deathly ill patient away, they are doing much more harm.

And what you hear about the Lyme conventions are done out in the open in doctor's offices all the time. Ever wonder why there are posters advertising prescription drugs in the doctor's offices? Have you ever visited Propublica's dollars for doctors? It's a wonderful tool to see just who's paying doctors what (including free dinners, trips and other goodies) - that was a real eye opening moment for me.
/www.propublica.org/series/dollars-for-docs

It is my personal opinion that we must protect our health from everyone - including family members. They may mean well, but we can be lead astray in many places, from family to doctors. We are the ones that pay for that misjudgement, and as so, we must stand up and say no, when a doctor (of any type) tries to diagnose us and push us into treatment for things that just "don't fit"/there's no evidence for.

Having had these infections all my life has led me to these conclusions. I was pushed into many treatments, by many different people in my life. Being very ill during those times, I was willing "to try anything" and it took a very long time to realize that "trying anything" may have actually been hurting me, which it was. I had one supposedly very good Endo want to remove my thyroid rather than treat me for hypothyroidism.

In a perfect world we would at least have doctors who spent more than the 10 - 15 minutes now allowed (by the insurance co's) per patient, we wouldn't be bombarded with sales people IN our doctor's offices, taking his time up instead of him/her spending it with us - the patients, and we would be properly evaluated without the CDC making calls to doctor's offices and hospitals to "make sure" the IDSA treatment standards are the ones being followed, even though they have been removed from the NGC (National Guidelines Clearinghouse).

But, we don't live in that perfect world, so we must be the guardian of our health - which leaves us being the doctors/researchers.
Posted 5/17/2016 4:36 PM (GMT 0)

Traveler said...

We don't live in that perfect world, so we must be the guardian of our health - which leaves us being the doctors/researchers.

What a quote. It's probably everyones epiphany here but we never say it out loud, or have the words to describe it.
Posted 5/17/2016 4:42 PM (GMT 0)
Hang around, Asmoline! LOL! A lot of things pop out of my mouth and onto my key board!! LOL! turn

It's just how I see it. We are the ones that have to live through whatever is done to our bodies, we need to be the final decision maker about what we put in it/do to it. I've chosen to protect my health, no matter who or how many I have to fire or argue with.
Posted 5/18/2016 12:31 AM (GMT 0)

Traveler said...
First of all, I don't want anyone thinking that this is some type of argument. I believe that Tommy and I are only having a very interesting conversation! Who knows, maybe we all will end up learning some stuff?

""us vs them" mentality can be a very slippery slope" - very much agreed! I'd love for everyone to be on the side of just getting people healed! All of this bickering over things that can be proven scientifically should stop.

I am careful to support those claims of wrong doing by the CDC that I can back up - because I'm challenged about them all the time (not here, on other forums/places). The CDC very clearly sees the issues, yet refuses to concede that chronic Lyme is real and that IDSA treatment standards are not only ineffective, but out dated. But, I'm not above being corrected and learning more - I hope! :-)

Yes, I know exactly what you mean about the so-called holistic doctors that are doing harm as well as the regular doctors that deny all cases of Lyme (which is what happens here where I live) and allow people to live with chronic, ongoing infections, and doing physical harm because they often prescribe steroids to those very same patients. Every doctor knows that steroids are not to be given if there is a suspected infection. Doing nothing at all or turning them away when a patient comes into their offices begging for help, is not helping or "doing no harm". By turning a deathly ill patient away, they are doing much more harm.

And what you hear about the Lyme conventions are done out in the open in doctor's offices all the time. Ever wonder why there are posters advertising prescription drugs in the doctor's offices? Have you ever visited Propublica's dollars for doctors? It's a wonderful tool to see just who's paying doctors what (including free dinners, trips and other goodies) - that was a real eye opening moment for me.
/www.propublica.org/series/dollars-for-docs

It is my personal opinion that we must protect our health from everyone - including family members. They may mean well, but we can be lead astray in many places, from family to doctors. We are the ones that pay for that misjudgement, and as so, we must stand up and say no, when a doctor (of any type) tries to diagnose us and push us into treatment for things that just "don't fit"/there's no evidence for.

Having had these infections all my life has led me to these conclusions. I was pushed into many treatments, by many different people in my life. Being very ill during those times, I was willing "to try anything" and it took a very long time to realize that "trying anything" may have actually been hurting me, which it was. I had one supposedly very good Endo want to remove my thyroid rather than treat me for hypothyroidism.

In a perfect world we would at least have doctors who spent more than the 10 - 15 minutes now allowed (by the insurance co's) per patient, we wouldn't be bombarded with sales people IN our doctor's offices, taking his time up instead of him/her spending it with us - the patients, and we would be properly evaluated without the CDC making calls to doctor's offices and hospitals to "make sure" the IDSA treatment standards are the ones being followed, even though they have been removed from the NGC (National Guidelines Clearinghouse).

But, we don't live in that perfect world, so we must be the guardian of our health - which leaves us being the doctors/researchers.

Bravo Traveler, excellent post !

And thank you for your sincerity .... I have become so distrusting and skeptical ... I expected it from conventional doctors - the lies, the denial, the $$$

But some of the integrative docs and lyme specialists have been just as bad

Traveler, thank you again for your posts, and thank you for moderating this forum - it is full of wonderful people ... People I consider heroes
Posted 5/18/2016 12:57 AM (GMT 0)
Tommy08, I went to an "Integrative Medicine" practice initially (Lyme specialists) when I thought I had Lyme, saw a Naturopathic doctor. She didn't test me for Lyme, diagnosed me with adrenal fatigue, gave a bunch of costly supplements and missed it completely.

I really didn't want to have Lyme, so when she turned down the adrenal fatigue road, I went with her, even though I knew in my gut I had it.

I've since learned that this place don't have the best reputation...They have sort of an alternative medicine factory model of care. :(

I think it's important to remain distrusting and skeptical...nobody else has your best interests at heart like you do.
Posted 5/18/2016 2:13 AM (GMT 0)
I've just wanted to add, that I totally get where Tommy08 is coming from. I'm going to be totally frank here. I also want to point out that I'm being totally sincere here, in the deepest regard.

I am a skeptic. Big time. I believe in evidence, and when I say evidence, I don't mean the whole "he said, she said" kind.

I come from a history, and several generations, of facts. My brothers are engineers, and I manage a high volume restaurant with 50 employees. I have to deal with business related problems and come up with answers on a daily basis. My friends are aerospace, electric, and software engineers. I have one friend who is working towards becoming a neurosurgeon. We have all grown through the years learning, looking in to new research and strategies, and we take everything with a very large grain of salt.

I was sick with the whole Lyme BS for 9 months. I was tested via Western Blot, twice, and both times positive for Lyme Disease. I had it BAD. I drove myself in the middle of the night to the ER 3 times, and not because of pain, but because I thought I was dying. Heart problems, Eye problems, MS symptoms, air hunger. Just walking up a set of stairs was pure dread. This wasn't the whole, "Go to the ER and leave the next morning" thing. they kept me for days because my heart was so screwy. I didn't sleep in my bed because it was on the second floor. I rarely showered because it took too much out of me. I was SICK.

With that being said (and without sounding too dirty) I put a lot of things in my mouth. Antibiotics, homeopathic stuff, silver, herbs I can't pronounce, etc... I didn't get better at all, until I started Buhners stuff for Bart. I was in a place where I would honestly do just about anything to get better. We're talking live animal sacrifice levels here. I had no faith in Buhners at all. If you ever hear the guy talk, it might make you question what plane of thought he floats on.

When I first started taking his stuff, my eye problems got bad, and other symptoms would flare and subside at the rate of whatever my body felt like doing. Within WEEKS, I got better. ALOT better. Imagine going from feeling like a heart attack to being able to jog. That's what we're talking about. I've taken maybe 5 months of antibiotics, and didn't get as far as I did with taking two main herbs. Sida Acuta and Houttuynia.

I now get to drink caffeine and booze, and I'm not shy with it. How awesome is that?!

In the end, you have to remind yourself. herbs do work. Most drugs are derived from herbs and fungus.

You don't need to question whether or not herbs are effective. You need to question what you have wrong with you, and how much you need take to get better.
Posted 5/18/2016 2:14 AM (GMT 0)

Kathie said...
Tommy08, I went to an "Integrative Medicine" practice initially (Lyme specialists) when I thought I had Lyme, saw a Naturopathic doctor. She didn't test me for Lyme, diagnosed me with adrenal fatigue, gave a bunch of costly supplements and missed it completely.

I really didn't want to have Lyme, so when she turned down the adrenal fatigue road, I went with her, even though I knew in my gut I had it.

I've since learned that this place don't have the best reputation...They have sort of an alternative medicine factory model of care. :(

I think it's important to remain distrusting and skeptical...nobody else has your best interests at heart like you do.

Kathie, I am sorry to hear, and I'm sorry to say that I can relate ..... The good thing is that we all have a real bond here on this forum, and that can be a very powerful thing ...

I have found that simple common sense can go a long way in figuring out what to do -- there are overlapping symptoms with a lot of people, but in reality, each of us has come to this point in our lives from a different path .... When I think about why this has happened, and when it all began, that does answer a lot of questions ..

I am taking all this as a challenge - and that I will be a better person for it once I get thru ... I think that applies to everyone who has experienced this, and for those who are going thru it .

I refuse to be a victim - to either the illness itself, or, to the doctors
Posted 5/18/2016 2:36 AM (GMT 0)

Nilrin said...
I've just wanted to add, that I totally get where Tommy08 is coming from. I'm going to be totally frank here. I also want to point out that I'm being totally sincere here, in the deepest regard.

I am a skeptic. Big time. I believe in evidence, and when I say evidence, I don't mean the whole "he said, she said" kind.

I come from a history, and several generations, of facts. My brothers are engineers, and I manage a high volume restaurant with 50 employees. I have to deal with business related problems and come up with answers on a daily basis. My friends are aerospace, electric, and software engineers. I have one friend who is working towards becoming a neurosurgeon. We have all grown through the years learning, looking in to new research and strategies, and we take everything with a very large grain of salt.

I was sick with the whole Lyme BS for 9 months. I was tested via Western Blot, twice, and both times positive for Lyme Disease. I had it BAD. I drove myself in the middle of the night to the ER 3 times, and not because of pain, but because I thought I was dying. Heart problems, Eye problems, MS symptoms, air hunger. Just walking up a set of stairs was pure dread. This wasn't the whole, "Go to the ER and leave the next morning" thing. they kept me for days because my heart was so screwy. I didn't sleep in my bed because it was on the second floor. I rarely showered because it took too much out of me. I was SICK.

With that being said (and without sounding too dirty) I put a lot of things in my mouth. Antibiotics, homeopathic stuff, silver, herbs I can't pronounce, etc... I didn't get better at all, until I started Buhners stuff for Bart. I was in a place where I would honestly do just about anything to get better. We're talking live animal sacrifice levels here. I had no faith in Buhners at all. If you ever hear the guy talk, it might make you question what plane of thought he floats on.

When I first started taking his stuff, my eye problems got bad, and other symptoms would flare and subside at the rate of whatever my body felt like doing. Within WEEKS, I got better. ALOT better. Imagine going from feeling like a heart attack to being able to jog. That's what we're talking about. I've taken maybe 5 months of antibiotics, and didn't get as far as I did with taking two main herbs. Sida Acuta and Houttuynia.

I now get to drink caffeine and booze, and I'm not shy with it. How awesome is that?!

In the end, you have to remind yourself. herbs do work. Most drugs are derived from herbs and fungus.

You don't need to question whether or not herbs are effective. You need to question what you have wrong with you, and how much you need take to get better.


I just want to say thank you for this post Nilrin...for someone reason it really 'touched' me and I enjoyed reading. After all that you explained you went through and to come out where youre at now by taking Buhner's herbs is truly capital A-Awesome!! yeah

-Courtney
Posted 5/18/2016 3:07 AM (GMT 0)
Being skeptical is a good thing indeed, especially after all we have collectively been through with the "Lyme Wars" and now with a whole slew of practitioners getting into the game, and with some being unscrupulous, it is certainly healthy to be aware and ultimately be the "decider" as to your own health. While Buhner has put forth an incredible amount of information regarding herbs and their efficacy regarding Lyme and the mighty mighty Co's, he is certainly not infallible and it is possible he could be wrong about Bartonella and herxes and other issues as well. I haven't done my own research on it so can't say either way.

That being said, I don't share your cynicism regarding Buhner especially regarding your comment about Arteminsin. Actually I know for a fact 1st Chinese Herbs (which he recommends) sells it. He also passes "the sniff test" for me that he isn't "in it just for the money" by the fact that he isn't cashing in big with his own brand of "Buhner Herbs", etc...and still freely volunteers his information for free (I've chatted with him several times on Facebook where he has given me lots of great info.

Lastly, like Nilrin so eloquently put, I've also seen the positive benefits of many of his herbs, which was the "proof in the pudding" for me.

Best wishes as you seek a solution to improve your health Tommy08!
Posted 5/18/2016 3:56 AM (GMT 0)
I also believe he is wrong in some way when saying bartonella doesn't herx.

In my experience, bartonella did herx... But i think it is in some ways different than a lyme herx.

He is actually going by the scientific literature... That is bartonella is actually a relatively non-toxic gram negative bacteria (compared to many other gram-negative bacterias that is... But we know 90-95% of gram-negative bacteria can be pathogenic - or so I read that). We know this because rodents or wild animals sometimes live with bartonella infections their entire life... The bart wants a host to live in, but doesn't want to kill it's host. For example some gram-negatives have some toxic lipo proteins... whereas bartonella doesn't have toxic lipoproteins. So that is why I think he thinks it doesn't herx.

I think it's not really the bart dieing, it's more the bartonella getting angry... Because while there is bart herx symptoms compared to bart symptoms... To me it's just another bart symptom lol!

And I know he argues it could be the other bacteria... I think it's the bart.

So in my experience bart does herx, just a different kind of herx. And if it does herx, or if it's just a symptom then it's still there. treating bart is like putting out a fire, you have to keep spraying until all the fire is gone... and then keep spraying until all the coals and burning embers are out too! At that point we think it's gone, but we have to keep spraying to make sure. (for a long time)
Posted 5/18/2016 4:46 AM (GMT 0)
Ya pissing bugs off...maybbe the herx...
i thank trav ...saying what we are thinking ...hw should make a ode to you warrioress of hope and bouncing baby goats.
as far as bart ...i was fine with it eating me until i angered them..know im mad in anger and the hatter sort of way..btw the functional medice doc knew i had it ,thought i knew but didnt twll me let me get iv c and it was his nurse who said dearie you have lyme ! I was in denial until microscopy and igenix...even now a fuctional duc got me port to sell me ivs but when i ask for access to admin at home she is all scard of liability ladie ladala ... $hit
Posted 5/18/2016 1:47 PM (GMT 0)

bluelyme said...

i thank trav ...saying what we are thinking ...hw should make a ode to you warrioress of hope and bouncing baby goats.

Thank you, Bluelyme! You just gave me quite the giggle this morning!! turn Maybe I could just be awarded a bouncing baby goat???

blush and thank you for your kind words. They are very much appreciated.

I'm with Orchid_rain - the whole "he said, she said" doesn't work for me, which is why I earned the nick name of "Queen of links" - which I don't mind either. I like to link to where I've read it. If it's not good enough evidence for someone, I understand, but at least they know that (a)it's not my opinion, and (b)where to read it for themselves and decide.

I am likely one of the biggest skeptics of doctors any more. I don't care what type of medicine they practice, there's actually only one doc that I came away from feeling much more healed, and that was a Traditional Chinese Medicine practitioner! She was a hippie 'back in the day', and took such good care of me, and put my health goals above her own personal goals. I healed a set of 40 yr old tick infections in just 2 years.

I have had to adopt that attitude to survive. There is not one single doctor (other than the one I just mentioned) that I have seen in my entire adult life (I'm 53 in a few weeks) that has not tried to take advantage of me in one way or another. I've thanked those that were up front with me (a total of 2) when they told me politely that they would not dig deep into any condition in the first appt, but they would help treat a few symptoms. Of course, that's not what I'm looking for.

We need a partnership with our health care practitioners. It doesn't matter what hat (title) they wear, whatever works for each is fine. What matters is, are they in it for the money? Or do they really have concerns for helping people.

My last doc took me a while to realize that she was in it for the money. The clencher? When I wasn't continuing to progress in my healing, yet she refused to adjust my thyroid and adrenal meds (a recent rant of mine on here!). She would have rather to have me as a much longer term patient, but quite honestly, when I
'found' her after much searching and wading through those docs that just wanted to remove my thyroid (for hypothyroidism???), I was much too sick to figure it out on my own. So, while she did likely save me from the hands of those that would have just loaded me up with steroids (in the hospital), she ultimately didn't deserve to have patients, since she was collecting them like precious toys and things she didn't want to let go.

I just recently found myself back in treatment for Bartonella, and I'll tell ya, I herxed. It was a flare of Bart symptoms, sure, but isn't that what happens with Lyme? Call it what you want, it talks like a herx, walks like a herx and I know it's not pleasant! smilewinkgrin

LymePickle - I think it was you that started that discussion last time about Bart herxes - right? You are the reason!! Ha ha ha! You really are the reason that I even realized that someone was saying it's not a "true" herx, and we all decided that it didn't matter if it was considered a 'true' herx or not, we were herxing! ...if I remember correctly.
Posted 5/18/2016 4:34 PM (GMT 0)
If you all would like, I can reach out to Buhner and probably convince him that bart can cause herxes. He probably doesn't deal with many folks like me. Lol
Posted 5/18/2016 4:47 PM (GMT 0)
I don't really think that's necessary, to be honest. We already know he's not infallible.
Posted 5/18/2016 5:13 PM (GMT 0)
Nilrin, Orchid, Pickle, Mike, Blue, Hunter and Traveler, thank you for you posts

Nilrin, that is one inspiring post you put up - thanks again
Posted 10/6/2021 9:28 PM (GMT 0)
I think that Bartonella causes more symptoms when it is threatened by something. Wether it be an herbal medicine or antibiotic.
Posted 10/7/2021 11:03 AM (GMT 0)
its an old thread - but i would just add that we do not actually know what causes what most of us experience and call a herx reaction.

its assumed its due to the lipoproteins in the outer membranes of bacteria breaking up and entering the bloodstream when antibiotics kill bacteria in systemic infections.
this is thought to be the mechanism / cause when it occurs in syphilis treatment for instance - but those reactions are very sudden and short lived - start within hours of treatment and last only hours or a day at maximum.

however, in lyme patients - much more long lived "herx like reactions" are common - sometimes lasting weeks or even indefinitely as long as treatment continues
the causal mechanism for this much longer reaction is unknown - but it doesn't fit well with the lipoprotein theory.

its likely something else is going on mediated by some function of the immune system that we do not yet understand. Buhner actually alludes to this in the quote above.
Posted 10/7/2021 1:42 PM (GMT 0)

Mister Mike said...

That being said, I don't share your cynicism regarding Buhner especially regarding your comment about Arteminsin. Actually I know for a fact 1st Chinese Herbs (which he recommends) sells it. He also passes "the sniff test" for me that he isn't "in it just for the money" by the fact that he isn't cashing in big with his own brand of "Buhner Herbs", etc...and still freely volunteers his information for free (I've chatted with him several times on Facebook where he has given me lots of great info.

Wow...good point to bring up!
I was seriously considering adding Arteminsin to my rotating regimen, but was reluctant solely on his comments on its use. Perhaps I should take a 2nd look & include it (award winning in its treatment for Malaria) !

Rob
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