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Posted 5/26/2016 8:47 PM (GMT 0)
Hi guys so I finally convinced my LLMD to treat for Bartonella. He prescribed Bactrim and Ivertmectin which the Bactrim makes sense to me, but I've never read anybody on here combining it with Ivertmectin? Interesting enough 2nd day into the Bactrim I felt wonderful. Most of my symptoms in my legs were gone.. 4th day right back to normal and a little worse. I also have zithromax prescribed, but asked him to add that in. Haven't started taking that.

Any thoughts on this combo or words if wisdom? I see a lot with Rifampin. I was confirmed Babesia last summer, but I don't believe my symtoms are babesia related. I think I confuse my LLMD lol.
Posted 5/26/2016 9:33 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Callaway -

Glad you're treating bart (if I could start my treatment over again, I would start w/ bart).

And also - SO GLAD that you didn't start zithromax yet because...

Your pattern sounds like a herx due to lack of sufficient detoxing. It's like your toxin levels got builtup over time due to the killing action, but then hit a point where the debris from what you were killing wasn't getting flushed out of your body fast enough and you start experiencing symptoms. So I would increase detox - what are you currently doing?

Other than that, I can't comment much on that the bactrim+ivermectin duo. Hopefully others will chime in.

-p

Post Edited (Pirouette) : 5/26/2016 4:45:34 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 5/26/2016 10:30 PM (GMT 0)
Well I'm also doing Cowden Protocol the last 4 months as well so there is a decent amount of detoxing in that. I introduced Red Root as well. My symptoms are as followed

- pain in muscles and nerves in my calves and ankles. Also above the knee caps in the lower part of the quads

- Over the last 2-3 weeks it feels like my Lymph nodes in my neck are swollen, but it moves which definitely seems like a Lyme or Bart thing. I did two months of proper Lyme treatment on high dosage doxy and didn't even once see a herx

I'm going to continue on a Bart protocol I just question this Ivermectin and Bactrim duo. You guys have always given me great help and in site. I've learned a lot from people on here and reading.
Posted 5/26/2016 10:57 PM (GMT 0)
Awesome - I have learned a ton as well. In fact, if I hadn't found this forum I have no idea where I'd be.

But back to you -

Your protocol sounds pretty good already. One option is to slow treatment down a little bit - even in a small way (pulsing or reducing quantities). Sometimes LLMDs don't like to do that but if we're not detoxing effectively, herxing can be unhealthy and unhelpful.

Your skin is your largest detox organ so it really helps to use it - carefully. I would try this sequence - sweat, brush, soak

- Can you do something to sweat? Exercise or sauna? Exercise can be tough with painful legs. But it often helps reduce my level of pain.

- I would try dry brushing (lots of info online) to improve your circulation and lymph drainage and follow up with detox baths if you can.

- Lots of info online about cocktails for the baths (epsom salts, sea salt, hydrogen peroxide, essential and/or aromatherapy oils). You can even do foot soaks if baths aren't possible. But start the baths slowly - with very tepid water and small amounts of one cocktail ingredient at a time. Continue increasing until you hit symptoms again then stay at that level until symptoms are gone. Slowly work yourself up to optimal amounts, temperature, and length of bath time.

Something else several of us here use to manage nerve issues or neuropathy is LDN - low dose naltrexone. If you're interested - do a search here on the forum - a lot of good info.

Hope that's helpful - let us know if you still have questions.

-p
Posted 5/26/2016 10:59 PM (GMT 0)
Check out this link where we all chime in on our detoxing - I think you will be surprised how much you can actually do in a day and everyday. Not that you should do them all to start - that will cause problems.

www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3602759
Posted 5/27/2016 12:22 AM (GMT 0)
I have read about Ivermectin being prescribed for Babesia. I don't think it's commonly used, though.
Maybe your Dr. is wanting to hit Babesia at the same time as Bartonella.
Posted 5/27/2016 12:28 AM (GMT 0)
Great info! I do all of this. Weird thing is the brushing or Epson salt baths make no difference. I do physical active still. I'll walk 18 holes of golf and still go the gym. I just bare through it. Hopefully one day I'll figure this out. I still to this day don't know if my symptoms are Lyme, Babs, or Bart. I've tried treatment for Lyme and Babs. Was tested positive for Babs. Only other thing to try is Bart. It's so crazy how symptoms over lap in the different co-infections.

It's truly a shame that the funding for this disease is so low. That's the CDC's fault when they broadcast that everything is treatable with Doxy on a 3 week course. The silent disease that gets no attention yet people struggle with it for years.
Posted 5/27/2016 12:57 AM (GMT 0)
I forgot to mention that bartonella often causes swollen/sore lymph nodes.

I had a sore lump in my clavicle area and when I was finally diagnosed - my LLND said it was a swollen lymph node.

Since bartonella treatment it has gone...I think it's flared up a couple of times in the last month or so.

How long did you treat your lyme and babesia?

Also, wanted to mention that if the bactrim doesn't work for bartonella - you could try Rifampin.
That seems to be the popular choice - especially if you've had the infection for quite a while.
Posted 5/27/2016 1:58 AM (GMT 0)
Ya I agree with you! I was thinking Rifampin and Biaxin from what I've seen in most people's profiles for Bart. It's like shopping on the buffet. Try a little of this, and try a little of that. Hate the antibotic approach, but just doing it in combination with herbs to hopefully get to the finish line one day haha.

Lyme was 8 weeks and Babs was 8 weeks. Never saw a herx or saw anything get better in those treatments. Weird right? I know Babs is 4-6 months, but you'd think maybe a little something at least!

Did sometimes your swelling go down in your neck and move around? That's how mine is. Sometimes it's more toward the sides of the neck and sometimes closer to the thyroid. I ordered HH2 pills from Dr Zhang so we will see what happens there. Im just trying different stuff and listening to my body to hopefully get a reaction from something to figure this out.
Posted 5/27/2016 3:07 AM (GMT 0)
In the beginning - My lymph node swelling would go down now and then but would flare every late afternoon and evening.
It would hurt, too, and was accompanied with nerve pain on the side of my neck, across my shoulders and down my left arm.

It slowly got better while I was treating Bart...

It didn't move around though. it was always in the same place.

Maybe you have several lymph nodes that are affected.

What were you treating Babesia with? Sometimes a change of meds is needed...same with Lyme treatment.

The symptoms that have subsided for me...have done so ever so slowly....
Posted 5/27/2016 12:44 PM (GMT 0)
Well that's good to hear. I was on malarone and Zithromax. Before that was doxy and mepron for Lyme.
Posted 5/27/2016 12:47 PM (GMT 0)
I'm not sure if Bart is something that can happen immediately, but the weird thing about me is I found the tick on my back after it being there for a good 15 hrs. Minute I pulled it off my leg muscles tightened up ever since. Once I went on antibotics it felt more like it got into the nerves and foot /ankle area.
Posted 5/27/2016 2:05 PM (GMT 0)

Pirouette said...
Hi Callaway -

Glad you're treating bart (if I could start my treatment over again, I would start w/ bart).



-p

P, why would you start with Bart? It seems as though some people say start with Babs. Does it depend on symptoms?
Posted 5/27/2016 4:47 PM (GMT 0)
I think it depends on the LL Dr.

I know some who always start with Lyme...and see what shakes out.

Others' want to treat the dominant infection.

If I had to do it over again...I would push for bart treatment much sooner. I did 9 1/2 months of lyme only antibiotics...and my symptoms screamed bart. the thing is - when you treat bart, you are also treating lyme - eg: doxy/Rif - add in a cyst buster...and you've got lyme (including cysts) and Bart covered.
or zith/Rif, mino/Rif, biaxin/Rif....same thing, right?

I would be much further ahead...if he'd switched at 4 or 5 months...(not only the 4 months of less treatment, but my liver enzymes wouldn't have climbed and most likely wouldn't have needed a 2 1/2 month abx break)
My liver enzymes have been good on Bart treatment.

So, for me we're looking at potentially 6 1/2 months further ahead...that's a big chunk of time when you're watching the clock...and antsy to get back to work...and life in general.
Posted 5/27/2016 9:18 PM (GMT 0)
Krimpet -

"Where to start" hopefully begins with lowering yeast/fungal and viral loads. MANY MDs are not checking for these (lyme ticks also often carry many other infections and other times, they become opportunistic simply because our immune function is low). Not only do the MDs start weak and sick patients off with INTENSE treatment on an already overloaded immune system but there are so many overlapping symptoms it's nearly impossible to gauge responses to lyme & co meds, herbs and detoxing protocols...

There is no panacea treatment - we absolutely need a functioning immune system in order to heal from lyme & co. Meds and herbs cannot do it all on their own. There is a somewhat recent (in the lyme community) push to "heal the body"--some say instead of antimicrobial treatment, I say before treatment.

Sorry - that really wasn't your question LOL but I just want to include that so that others can be aware that there is an optimal sequence, particularly for people who had trouble with unsuccessful initial treatment or are clearly chronic cases. The body's overall health status must be considered and addressed first.

SO -
How to prioritize the rest? I'd go by symptoms, which can sometimes be clear and indicate the dominant infection, but not always. I was a little confusing at first - it seemed like lyme AND babs were my dominant sx but I didn't test positive for babs (not surprising - tests are horrible). Sometimes MDs have to start treatment with whatever shows up positive on tests for insurance purposes. I was CDC pos for lyme so that's where we started with abx. I continued taking herbs for bart and babs and the bart herbs proved to be way to intense for me... I'm still scared to take them. ;)

But I've been through lyme tx for 18 months and have had a lot of success with physical symptoms. I had a horrible time with the lyme and detoxing protocol and maintaining consistency for so long that it dragged my treatment out another year (there were other reasons too).

I've read that bart can go dormant once you start lyme treatment. I've been treating bart now for 2 months and I think many of my cognitive issues were due to bart and even more importantly many of my GI issues were due to bart. Since we desperately need our immune systems (of which 70% lies in the gut) I feel that's where I should have started. These sx are starting to clear (somewhat).

So, it's tough to know for sure but I wonder if I had started bart first, if I would have had an easier time managing lyme tx. Oddly, since I started treating bart, I've not had too many babs sx flare...

-p
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