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Are herbs easier on our bodies than abx?

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Posted 7/17/2016 6:52 PM (GMT 0)
Hey all. Used to post here a lot but I've been gone for a bit...mainly cause I've been doing much better!

That said, I've been having a minor relapse recently - a persistent feeling of air hunger, which my LLMD has determined is from a babesa infection.

I did antibiotics for three years...and now I find that whenever I do them again, they begin to cause alopecia barbae, or facial hair loss. This is really sad for me because I have a full, thick beard, and the antibiotics have been ruining it. This usually coincides with whacky blood work (bilirubin, iron levels off, etc.) and feeling generally worse than I did before taking the abx. This has happened with amoxicillin, tindamax, rifampin, clarithromycin, mepron, everything really after prolonged use.

I do a lot to detox. And eat quite well, my body just can't handle abx other than doxy and Zithromax, neither of which are used to treat babesia.

Long story short, I'm about to switch to herbs due to how poorly my body reacts to antibiotics. I'm hoping they won't cause hair loss for me and be easier for my body to tolerate. Is this often the case for others?

I was considering trying artemesia-enula then cryptolypsis
Posted 7/17/2016 7:22 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Reba!

I'm so glad you have been doing better!! Congratulations!

It's not a common side effect of herbs for treating Babesia to cause hair loss, I don't believe, but I haven't looked deeply into it. We do know that often those that can't use abx can use herbs though, and herbs work synergistically with the body to bring about healing, so they are often better tolerated.

With that said, please do watch for those symptoms.
Posted 7/17/2016 7:28 PM (GMT 0)
Generally, the herbs are easier to tolerate than the antibiotics.

I think it's definitely worth a try for you since you can't tolerate the antibiotics.

I wasn't able to get Pharma to treat Babesia - and I wanted to treat it...so I have been pulsing Artemisinin - 4 days on and 10 off.
This is not just to prevent resistance...but also to hopefully prevent my intestines creating an enzyme that kills the herb.

i have herxed a few times on it...I think it's doing 'something'.

This is after 9 1/2 months on lyme only antibiotics, followed by 7-8 months of Bartonella antibiotics and still not fully healed....
Posted 7/17/2016 7:52 PM (GMT 0)
This is kind of a philosophical question with no straight forward answer. Herbs and antibiotics can both be dangerous. That said I tend to view herbs like fruit and antibiotics like refined sugar. Herbs tend to come with a number of synergistic and health promoting compounds that CAN make them better tolerated. You'll often find antibiotics come with side effects like cancer and heart disease whereas herbs come with side effects like cancer prevention and endothelial protection. One must remember plants and mammals have a longstanding evolutionary relationship and if one breaks out of the darwinistic mindset of viewing everything as an arms race with coincidental outcomes for human health, it may be considered that plant medicines serve a vital role in maintaining the stability of ecosystems and regulating animal populations and thus are adequately developed to that purpose.

Those are my thoughts at least. Doesn't mean that every herb is safe and useful in every situation. There have definitely been nasty outcomes and I think that stems more from a disconnection with herbal medicine and a knowledge of how to use it appropriately. So approach it like you would anything else. Be cautious, don't overload yourself with stuff, and keep regular watch on your liver enzymes. Make sure you read up on the side effects of particular herbs etc. If I had to condense my answer to something simple though, I would say yes... I think they are safer. With Artemesia remember you are supposed to pulse it and not use it long term. Cryptolepsis can be used long term as prevention, but as treatment I don't know.
Posted 7/17/2016 8:31 PM (GMT 0)
Reba, how long had you had the babesia before you started treating it? I too was diagnosed with babesia. So i want to know how long i should seek treatment. Since you have been treating it for 3 years, it worries me i'm in for the same boat ride.

I'm not too sure which is better. I'd say the herbs.
Posted 7/17/2016 8:36 PM (GMT 0)
While I agree that herbs need to be considered medicine that can be dangerous if not used properly, we do need to understand that herbs, like pharma's can be used safely and long term if it's warranted.

It's arteminisin (the extract) that should be pulsed, not artemisia annua (the whole herb).

This is an interesting conversation on this site, although older, it says a lot about the use of artemesia annua in those countries where malaria (Babesia is a malaria like disease) is endemic:
/malariaworld.org/poll/should-artemisia-annua-wormwood-tea-be-used-prophylactic-endemic-countries

Artemesia of all types can cause seizures in some people, so caution does need to be used, and should not be used by pregnant or nursing mothers. Although I do have to say that Lyme and company and the toxins they produce did create seizures in me, and the artemesia annua didn't bring on any in me.

The sources I used to double check my own information:
www.uofmhealth.org/health-library/hn-2172008


/www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/integrative-medicine/herbs/artemisia-annua


/www.drugs.com/npp/sweet-wormwood.html
Posted 7/18/2016 2:19 PM (GMT 0)

khughes1041 said...
Reba, how long had you had the babesia before you started treating it? I too was diagnosed with babesia. So i want to know how long i should seek treatment. Since you have been treating it for 3 years, it worries me i'm in for the same boat ride.

I'm not too sure which is better. I'd say the herbs.

Don't be worried. I had Lyme, bart, and erlichia as well. My problem was I didn't treat babesia during those three years. You may be able to get babesia under control in a few months and eradicate it completely within a year. There's no telling.
Posted 7/18/2016 4:27 PM (GMT 0)
i have lyme, bart and babesia and still having some bad symptoms after 2 years. everyone is different and no one can tell you what your personal path will bring. what you can do is give your body the best chance at recovery by eating well, your bloodwork numbers optimal, getting lots of sleep and keeping your gut healthy (aka immune system).
Posted 7/18/2016 4:39 PM (GMT 0)
Just work up slowly with whatever you use and definitely pull back if it's too much. And don't forget detox.
Posted 7/18/2016 6:03 PM (GMT 0)

Traveler said...
While I agree that herbs need to be considered medicine that can be dangerous if not used properly, we do need to understand that herbs, like pharma's can be used safely and long term if it's warranted.

It's arteminisin (the extract) that should be pulsed, not artemisia annua (the whole herb).

This is an interesting conversation on this site, although older, it says a lot about the use of artemesia annua in those countries where malaria (Babesia is a malaria like disease) is endemic:
/malariaworld.org/poll/should-artemisia-annua-wormwood-tea-be-used-prophylactic-endemic-countries

Artemesia of all types can cause seizures in some people, so caution does need to be used, and should not be used by pregnant or nursing mothers. Although I do have to say that Lyme and company and the toxins they produce did create seizures in me, and the artemesia annua didn't bring on any in me.

The sources I used to double check my own information:
www.uofmhealth.org/health-library/hn-2172008


/www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/integrative-medicine/herbs/artemisia-annua


/www.drugs.com/npp/sweet-wormwood.html

Thank you for your continued help. Hope you've been well :-)
Posted 7/18/2016 6:17 PM (GMT 0)

Traveler said...
While I agree that herbs need to be considered medicine that can be dangerous if not used properly, we do need to understand that herbs, like pharma's can be used safely and long term if it's warranted.

It's arteminisin (the extract) that should be pulsed, not artemisia annua (the whole herb).

This is an interesting conversation on this site, although older, it says a lot about the use of artemesia annua in those countries where malaria (Babesia is a malaria like disease) is endemic:
/malariaworld.org/poll/should-artemisia-annua-wormwood-tea-be-used-prophylactic-endemic-countries

Artemesia of all types can cause seizures in some people, so caution does need to be used, and should not be used by pregnant or nursing mothers. Although I do have to say that Lyme and company and the toxins they produce did create seizures in me, and the artemesia annua didn't bring on any in me.

The sources I used to double check my own information:
www.uofmhealth.org/health-library/hn-2172008


/www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/integrative-medicine/herbs/artemisia-annua


/www.drugs.com/npp/sweet-wormwood.html

Interesting, thanks for this. I will give it a more thorough read when I have time, but for the time being are you saying it doesn't have to be pulsed for toxicity or it doesn't have to be pulsed for efficacy? Because I know that with artemisinin it loses it's efficacy after a week if not withdrawn and it can be neurotoxic long term so I'm not sure which one, or both, you are referring to not being an issue with artemesia. It's interesting though. Really frustrates me when you read half of these studies that end with "*insert herb here* shows promise for treating *insert condition here*. *said herb* needs to be isolated and purified for active constituents". It's like a particular kind of psychosis to take something that already works and not evaluate it as a whole entity with multiple interacting parts that might be more valuable than any isolated ingredient. Just a rant.
Posted 7/18/2016 8:00 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Reba -

I think this is just like most everything else regarding lyme & co... everyone processes everything differently. I had no success with lyme herbs and had good success with lyme abx. I ended up in ER from bart herbs and did better with bart abx. I herxed normally w/ babs herbs...

For MY body, I needed a hybrid. And this also changed a little bit over time. I think abx work a little faster and herbs are a little more comprehensive. I think herbs are also better long-term (although I've been on lyme abx for 18 months...) My goal is to transition to all herbs by year's end and develop a good "end of treatment" herbal protocol for the next year, and a "maintenance herbal protocol that might take me well into the next several years... who knows. But that tells you what I think about herbs ;)

I haven't started treating babs yet (it was most dominant infection when I started and became least dominant now, 2 yrs later) so once I start treating babs my entire opinion could change. LOL

-p
Posted 7/18/2016 8:12 PM (GMT 0)

Psilociraptor said...
Interesting, thanks for this. I will give it a more thorough read when I have time, but for the time being are you saying it doesn't have to be pulsed for toxicity or it doesn't have to be pulsed for efficacy? Because I know that with artemisinin it loses it's efficacy after a week if not withdrawn and it can be neurotoxic long term so I'm not sure which one, or both, you are referring to not being an issue with artemesia. It's interesting though. Really frustrates me when you read half of these studies that end with "*insert herb here* shows promise for treating *insert condition here*. *said herb* needs to be isolated and purified for active constituents". It's like a particular kind of psychosis to take something that already works and not evaluate it as a whole entity with multiple interacting parts that might be more valuable than any isolated ingredient. Just a rant.


It's very controversial, but I know that in my own experience, I used Artemisia annua (also known as Sweet Annie or wormwood) for a full year and never had any real toxicity issues from it or the other herbs I was using. Here's a list of the herbs that I used for that year (and I used Houttuynia for 9 months to heal Bartonella): www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3244272

But, notice I clarify that I use Artemisia annua (the whole herb), not a derivative of it.

Safety of Artemisia Annua:
www.cam-cancer.org/The-Summaries/Herbal-products/Artemisia-annua/(merge)


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22736625


www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-756-sweet%20annie.aspx?activeingredientid=756&activeingredientname=sweet%20annie

Of course, I hope that you do your own research on this before taking it. Once caution is that those that are allergic to ragweed and few others may not tolerate Artemisia Annua, but I'm quite allergic to ragweed and have no issues with using it, so it's best to try it out under a doctor's care if you have those types of allergies.
Posted 7/18/2016 8:14 PM (GMT 0)

Reba2000 said...
Thank you for your continued help. Hope you've been well :-)

Thank you!! I am doing quite well actually, considering I'm still fighting the good fight! :-)

I do hope that you find what works for Babesia for you soon!!
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