Ivermectin use - part 2

In response to questions in previous thread:

TitusNana, for detoxing I am doing dry brushing daily. I am also using chlorine dioxide (CD, MMS) at 34 drops/day, divided among 8 doses. This is supposed to help detox toxins but maybe its not enough.

ChickenArise, I am not having any new pains or side effects, just my typical tendon flares hitting in lots more places, obviously in response to starting the Ivermectin.

Regarding timing and dosage of Ivermectin, doesn't it all depend on the species of parasite you are targeting and its life cycle?

k07, my functional med doctor suspected brucella too. I originally tested IgM positive twice, after which the South Carolina Department of Health, contacted my doc and got me to do a follow up test and it was picked up by some other lab called "BOL." They said they did the gold standard test for brucella (whatever that is) and it came back negative. I never did get to see the results with my own eyes.

Anyway, the ivermectin seems to be doing something, as I think I am experiencing a herx. I hope after this rough period my symptoms start to subside.

bdavis said...
...
Regarding timing and dosage of Ivermectin, doesn't it all depend on the species of parasite you are targeting and its life cycle?

Yes. If this is the first time you've de-wormed and your problems are chronic you can likely assume several different life cycles.

I am convinced much of my chronic pain is due to parasite or by product thereof in my muscle tissue.

This would explain why I don't always have pain as a constant but at some point in the day muscles become inflamed.

Ivermectin is only the first step as I don't believe it will resolve the muscle issue as only the nematodes that get paralyzed in the GI tract are cleared.

Yet Ivermectin is a good first step to reduce and decrease bacteria load that would likely occur from the multiple species die off that will happen when I get to the next medication.

I am dealing with at minimum threadworm which is 5-6 weeks with eggs able to survive just about anywhere outside of the body for 2-3 weeks. They are supposed to only survive in the GI tract but this doesn't stop them from entering through skin and crawling into muscle tissue and dying there causing inflammation.

These are near impossible to eradicate completely but reducing the load should help. Most are asymptomatic for a long time until the load gets extreme. Lots of eggs would mean lots of different ones hatching at different times at least initially *sigh*. The whole family is now treating.

I think the most important part of achieving any lasting result is retreating, otherwise eggs just hatch and re-infect. On the positive side is the fact that you don't have to stay on these meds for a long time. You just have to revisit them.

Since this is my first ever de-worm in my lifetime. The initial repeat should likely be a bit more frequent. There's probably lots of different eggs hatching at different times.

It is going to take time to realize a reduction and see improvement but I am now confident I am headed in the right direction and taking an action that will either resolve issues or at least allow for other types of future treatments to have more lasting benefit because they wont be hampered by nematodes which re-infect. There is some solace in this so I will take whatever solace and hope I can get these days.

It took a while to get here so it will take a while to resolve. I could spend a lot of energy trying to remove them from my environment or a little bit of energy trying to outlast their life cycle by retreating. I will take the latter and keep my head in a good place.

Hang in there, and trust your instincts. As always I am accessible off of the forum as my email is public in my profile. I am not qualified to give medical advice but can say what I would do if it were me (because its so likely that it is! :turn" />

PS - everyone's BM in house are responding in a positive way. Less constipation problems.

Post Edited (ChickenArise) : 12/15/2016 2:33:36 PM (GMT-7)

Ivermectin really helped me when I was first started working with my doc.
He would place me on 12 mg 4 time a day for three weeks. After a while
he added albendazole. I think most all of us could use a good parasite cleanse.

Update:

I did 4 days of Iver, 3 days off. Will repeat this cycle for a total of 28 days. Today is day 8.

My joints and tendons are killing me! I have flared hard from this and have not stopped. Having a hard time with this but hoping its killing something.

On the plus side, my weight has gone up 2 lbs. A few months ago I lost 10lbs for no explained reason. Starting to gain it back is a good sign. Maybe whatever was taking my nutrition/eating away at me is diminishing.

Traveler said...

ChickenArise said...


I am convinced much of my chronic pain is due to parasite or by product thereof in my muscle tissue.

This would explain why I don't always have pain as a constant but at some point in the day muscles become inflamed.

Just want to be sure that you understand this is also how Lyme behaves. Symptoms come and go and kind of rotate throughout the body.

Yes, but Ive had my chronic pain for many years more than Lyme. Some of the new pain like the muscle wasting and ice pick headaches are Lyme. Some of my long term chronic pain may be related to mycoplasma.

But I am happy that I attacking the nematode issue because I can tell I needed to address this.

Either way there is too much daily inflammation at some point in the day.

My goal is to severely reduce or limit the inflammation by killing what ever may be causing it.

I have reason to believe some of it may be caused by the long term effects of Zearalenone poisoning as my testosterone levels have been extremely low for many years now.

That said, I believe hormone replacement therapy is never a good idea when you are being poisoned by anything.

Hormones are the body's natural regulators which attempt to prevent us from developing cancers. Low hormone levels as well as high cholesterol levels are part of the body's defense mechanism. To mess with them while battling a toxin is dangerous.

I developed testicular cancer four months after beginning replacement therapy in 2013/2014. I believe my wifes breast cancer was the result of long term estrogen from birth control and a toxin she had encountered which would have been staved off had her body been allowed to down regulate her estrogen just as my body was attempting to down regulate testosterone. Just a hypothesis of mine.

But a parasite may have been involved directly or indirectly.

Unfortunately I cant kill aflatoxins.

+BDavis Hang in there. I was surprised that I actually saw nematodes and other unusual things so I am increasing the frequency of my cycles with less days off in between. This is my first ever de-worm and therefore I likely have a lot hatching at all at different times.

I will trust my instincts over everything. Should my instinct tells me to do a 14 day on at a higher dose I will trust it. If I ever have reason to suspect tapeworm I will do the Klinghardt dose of 48mg. I now believe Iver is even safer than I initially thought.

+julymorning There are some nematodes that don't cross species into humans but there is disagreement with the official medical take on heartworm.

I think many of these nematode larvae are transmitted by biting flies, fleas, and mosquitoes more than we are led to believe, so for the most part, yes we should de worm ever 6 months to a year and more heavily at first.

I am looking forward to a mebendazole 3 day cycle with a repeat in 2 weeks. I will likely add D.E.C. to the second day of mebendazole.

If I don't dramatically improve then my repeat cycle will be done using albendazole.

Dog doses are small and will be costly if you go that route. Horse or human meds would allow for proper dosing. If you can get your meds from India you will save a bunch.

As always become familiar with contraindications, side effects, and dosing by checking drugs.com for anything you might decide to use.

Post Edited (ChickenArise) : 12/16/2016 5:24:44 AM (GMT-7)

bdavis said...
Day 9 pulsed Ivermectin:

Haven't been able to walk the past 2 days. My left knee won't straighten and the pain is just moving around, circling the knee joint. Not to mention my other knee, both hands, wrist, shoulders. I am so trashed. Every day since I've started the Ivermectin has been hell. How long do herxes last? I am at the end of my rope. I am a stay at home Dad. I home school my 8 year old and my 2 years old is autistic. They can be hard to look after anyway, but now...How do I get through this? I am alive so that's good but I just feel horrible.

What is the size of your dose? Are you dividing the daily dose into smaller doses about the size of a chick pea or smaller every 6 hours? How often are you dosing? What does dosing on paste say? Concentration percent? I would increase my water consumption but reasonably as well as electrolytes.

Dumb question I know but just trying to help. Consuming no alcohol correct? Ivermectin can interact with other medications, vitamins, or herbs you may be taking.

Are you using any of these medications? /www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/ivermectin-index.html?filter=2&generic_only=

I take it with Kratom for pain but you cant just run to the corner store and get it (I use EZ Kratom). If I find any more info on this I will post here.

Post Edited (ChickenArise) : 12/15/2016 1:26:56 PM (GMT-7)

ChickenArise, I am using 3 clicks on the syringe, for 150lb animal, which I calculated out to be around 13.5mg. I weigh 184. I take that in one dose at night before bed. On no other drugs at all. I am still taking some of the herbs for Buhner's Lyme and myco protocols (cats's claw, eleuthero, rhodiola, licorice, andrographis, astragalus, red sage, teasel), which to be honest hasn't done anything. Also, Vitamin D3, NAC, and MMS.

If this is just a herx I can try and ride it. Its just been going a long time with no breaks (even on the days off of Iver). I've had no side effects, just an exacerbation of my existing pain. It bad and its taking a toll on me psychologically. Can this all be from parasite die off or is something else going on?

Girlie, yes I might have to stop the Ivermectin if it keeps on like this.

Post Edited (bdavis) : 12/15/2016 1:17:37 PM (GMT-7)

bdavis said...
ChickenArise, I am using 3 clicks on the syringe, for 150lb animal, which I calculated out to be around 13.5mg. I weigh 184. I take that in one dose at night before bed. On no other drugs at all. I am still taking some of the herbs for Buhner's Lyme and myco protocols (cats's claw, eleuthero, rhodiola, licorice, andrographis, astragalus, red sage, teasel), which to be honest hasn't done anything. Also, Vitamin D3, NAC, and MMS.

If this is just a herx I can try and ride it. Its just been going a long time with no breaks (even on the days off of Iver). I've had no side effects, just an exacerbation of my existing pain. It bad and its taking a toll on me psychologically. Can this all be from parasite die off or is something else going on?

....

I haven't found these syringes to be the most accurate but the dosing is very forgiving as I have taken close to 28mg at peak dosing and I weigh 25 pounds less than you. Three clicks sounds about right although not at all scientific. I was dividing it into smaller doses every 6 hours. Maybe that would be easier to tolerate? Im kinda grasping straws at this point.

I looked around and only saw recommendations against grapefruit juice but the other herbs is anyone's guess.

Of what you are taking I only take cats claw, and D3. Ive combined it with other herbs and don't notice any difference but none of the herbs I am using are particularly strong except the mimosa pudica and that doesn't appear to interact. Also what I was using had Praziquantel in it.

If you boil tea and then put the drops in the tea, the alcohol will evaporate off.

Muscle and joint pain is fairly common on the side effects, but I would have muscle pain without it and its about the same as on it. You sound like you are in a lot of pain, yet nothing else definitive on the side effects. No tremors. It doesn't sound like a Mazzotti Reaction either.

Follow your instinct on this. Im sorry I couldn't be of more help, but if I think of anything or come across new info I will post. Feel better soon.

Post Edited (ChickenArise) : 12/16/2016 5:34:48 AM (GMT-7)

Google Search "do we all herx not me and its working"
Its another forum otherwise I would post the link. should be the first result.

bdavis said...
Found the page, thanks.

Am I seeing anything? Well, just some strings of mucus, could be worms or just mucus. Not sure.

Sorry I ate something with carbs and was overtaken by sleep. I should have included "Ivermectin" just to the left of the Phrase. Just thought you might get an idea or two from others who were herxing. The only thing that stood out to me was that someone postulated that the ones who herxed badly were the ones who needed to be taking it.

What boggles my mind is of all of the antihelmintics this drug paralyzes rather than kills. One would think this would prevent the release of bacteria that the nematode has a relationship with.

I was led to believe that release of bacteria when killed is what causes the herx therefore I am baffled that a herx occurs while using, but apparently you aren't the only one that herxes from it.

This leads me to also wonder what is really going on?

Ivermectin has a very long half life so even the days off you will have some in your system. If I were in this situation and determined to repeat this I might just do one day of Iver on the subsequent cycles. My wife did this on all of the repeat cycles, but not because of herx. She said it made her anxious so we found middle ground. Amazingly her lengthy constipation issue resolved.

Post Edited (ChickenArise) : 12/16/2016 5:36:12 AM (GMT-7)

bdavis said...
ChickenArise, good question. If the worms are just paralyzed and this drug is systemic, then what removes them? ........This morning the pain in my left knee is completely gone, unless I poke at it. Walking normal. Just being able to walk again has lifted my spirits.

Now, my wrist, ring finger and my shoulder all on the left side are flared (which makes that whole arm useless), and my left bicep is twitching like CRAZY! You can see it vibrating and then doing bigger jumps, even through my long sleeve shirt.

I am glad your feeling better. If your doing the protocol we covered then this would be your 5th day off. Your mobility is signaling that much of the drug has been processed.
At least you know what to expect.

Ive wondered about what removes them from tissue myself. My guess was that some will be paralyzed long enough to not eat and maybe die.

I am thinking that maybe this is why the Albendazole or Mebendazole will be needed after Iver, to get at the ones in muscle. As far as what physically removes them I guess the bodys lymph system will try. Cysts can be tough for the body to remove.

I had been diagnosed with what they called a spermatocele in my testicle which began to hurt back in August/September of 2014 before I was aware of The threadworm issue. Now that I know what I do, this could have been a number of different things from a mold spore to a parasitical egg or an actual spermatocele which doesn't come with a medical explanation as to why one would get these.

A months worth of Nascent Iodine is what it took to shrink it to where it wasn't painful. It stayed with me for many months after regardless and would irritate from time to time but not as much as initially.

All I know for sure is that it has been documented that dogs who inhale a lot of Alternaria mold like I did have been noted to have swollen testicles (I am guessing filled with mold spores).

My lungs are still irritated from time to time after 4 cycles of Iver on similar protocol except I started 4th cycle 5 days early due to small pains in my GI tract which expelled more thread worm.

I can only suspect it is the threadworm that is irritating my lungs still. As threadworm is known to get in there. I cant feel movement or anything like that ever.

I am extending this 4th cycle into my 6th day on, as I tolerate it well. Now I am just going off of instinct. If I were hurting like you I am not sure what I would do.

Keep us posted on what you do and if you decide to repeat or modify.

I am pondering why Klinghardt recommends a 14day course. It is known that tapeworm wont succumb to Iver probably due to its size but I really don't have symptom of tapeworm.

Could it be that Klighardts goal is to keep the worms paralyzed for 14 days so they starve? This is what I am beginning to suspect. But I have also heard someone blog that they are "stuck" on Iver as when they attempt to come off they feel bad again.

Therefore I suspect that person appears to need to follow Iver with one of the two azoles to get the other spectrum of nematodes that cant be killed nor removed with Iver.

If one herxes on Iver I can only imagine what the herx would be like on the azole drugs. I also wonder if any of these antihelmintics which I believe are technically in the subset of antibiotics have any effect on whatever bacteria that the nematode has a relationship with and brings with it.

These are all questions I don't have answers to but would like to so I might better treat with what ever else would need to be added.

I could hit it with another round of Doxycycline but am reluctant unless someone were to indicate why this would be a good idea.

So I have many questions myself while I await the arrival of the other antihelmintics which I hope to start sometime next month. The only other one I have done is Nitazoxanide (Alina?) as my GP prescribed this when I complained of possible hookworm my pain and localized no rash subdermal itching.

I have seen this recommended to be used last in most protocols but I used it second. I have come to see it written that there are flukes that will move to the liver if this is used too early so I hope I didn't cause that to happen but I trust the forces that are guiding me.

The itching did not completely resolve but it is not a constant. Recently it is only my face that will itch and only sometimes. There is no rash or indication that it is fungal. There is some extremely dry skin on scalp near the ears but I am placing coconut oil on the dry parts and other parts of face that are not dry at all but sometimes itch.

I hope that by communicating all of this that someone will have an "ah-ha" realization or hypothesis and decide to share.

On an unrealated note the tingling sensations that I was used to getting have stopped. All I can this attribute this to is my continued use of mimosa pudica extract.

I am thankful that others have chimed in with their use of antihelmintics and how its helped. I have learned more from interacting with this fine group of insightful individuals and am grateful to be a part of this community.

Post Edited (ChickenArise) : 12/17/2016 11:34:52 AM (GMT-7)

You don't have to do 4 days each cycle but it is best to complete 4 cycles even if they are only 1 day on repeats.

Don't give up hope. I can appreciate how you feel because I feel the same way you do like I am a burden on my family at times, but I still have hope that I am going to figure it out, because whatever we need to learn is available on the internet and there are brilliant people here that are willing to give you information that can help.

Doctors have failed me so I have had to do this with little to no help. I still suffer daily but I have accomplished amazing things and learned so much.

I know the universe wants me to be well. My family deserves so much more. The universe guides me to what I need to know and to others who can provide insight because I ask it to.

The people on this forum are amazingly smart and they want to help you also. You need to find what you can be grateful for and stay focused on this. There is always someone who has it so much worse that you or I.

There are quadriplegics to no fault of their own who have learned to be happy and grateful.

You have to find reason to have hope. Never give up. I wont until I have tried everything.

When I get to the mebendazole or albendazole I expect to hit the other end of the spectrum that Iver doesn't get. Maybe you will also. Maybe its mycoplasma. Keep a symtpoms and treatment diary so you can keep track of what helps.

Life is pain. I accept this. I am also taking responsibility for my pain as I treated my body poorly when I was younger but I refuse to be a victim. I can and will correct for my mistakes.

But it is not my fault I got hit with this disease on top of it all. I've been ill for a long time and I don't expect it to change overnight.

I need to get it together so I can figure out how I am going to help my family survive the future.

We didn't move with a lot of cash but the move here buys us time. We moved in suitcases. It is cheap here with plenty of resources. It is beautiful here. The move here will buy us time to focus on getting well and then I will figure out the rest because there is no other option.

I would give my life for my family if I thought they would be better off with the life insurance money and this was all that they needed, but I know they are better off with me as long as I keep the right attitude and give them the love they deserve.

My family is counting on me, they are loving, caring, good people who love me. They deserve to be happy and have the best.
This will require sacrifices at first and I accept this also.

If I had remained focused on the negatives all this time then I would make everyone around me miserable. I had to snap out of it and realize that I really do enrich their lives when I stay courageous and not bitter. Your family is counting on you and loves you also.

You can also do ozone here for in Panama for $10 per treatment.

There was a person on this forum that had success with ozone and spent $15000 for treatment. I am so lucky to have found it for so cheap.

There just happened to be mimosa pudica growing all over my lawn that I didn't even know could possibly be useful.

I thought it was the mimosa pudica that was helping resolve the tingling sensation as I am not experiencing at all any more but it is more likely the ozone. I am sure both are helping.

When I moved here my meds were costing me $1000 per month. Most of it was the outrageous price of Oxycontin. Then I found Kratom and got off most of the medicine so I am saving a bunch of money when I thought I might end up breaking us. I will save nearly $10,000 a year on the cost of medication now. I get other meds from India for way cheaper than I ever thought possible.

I was having dark thoughts also. You only fail if you quit trying and choose to be miserable.

Maybe you can come out here and give ozone a shot. You can stay for as little as $30 per night or $350 per month if you rent a little longer term. Its serene and peaceful here.

You just have to find the correct treatment and keep your spirits up. You can do this!

Post Edited (ChickenArise) : 12/18/2016 12:06:49 AM (GMT-7)