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The Lyme spirochete does not produce neurotoxins

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Posted 2/2/2017 3:16 AM (GMT 0)
Bacteria produce only two types of toxins: endotoxins, which are non-secreted lipopolysaccharides (LPSs) that make up a large part of the cell wall of gram-negative bacteria; and, exotoxins that are secreted by some gram-positive bacteria and a few strains of gram-negative bacteria.

At one time, Borrelia burgdorferi was thought to possess an endotoxin since a product isolated from B. burgdorferi was reported to be pyrogenic for rabbits, mitogenic for human mononuclear cells and mouse spleen cells, capable of clotting limulus lysate (a diagnostic test for LPS), and cytotoxic for mouse macrophages; these are properties generally ascribed to bacterial LPS. However, subsequent studies revealed the absence of lipid A and other chemical structures characteristic of classic gram-negative endotoxins.

Although some claim that B. burgdorferi produces a potent neurotoxin, there is no published, peer-reviewed evidence indicating that B. burgdorferi is an exotoxin-producing bacterium. In fact, the genomic sequence data do not reveal the presence of genes that encode for either key structural elements of any known bacterial exotoxin, or components of a secretory apparatus required for the export and delivery of an exotoxin.

www.aldf.com/lyme-disease/#misinformation

Also see:

owndoc.com/lyme/lyme-neurotoxin-detoxing-nonsense/
Posted 2/2/2017 3:24 AM (GMT 0)
My head is buzzing from this post! Time to detox. I'm going to bed before I lose it...
Posted 2/2/2017 3:27 AM (GMT 0)
Hey Doug-What ever your point is---Thanks, but NO thanks.
Posted 2/2/2017 3:41 AM (GMT 0)
😪

Post Edited (Purrrsiankitty) : 2/1/2017 8:53:04 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 2/2/2017 3:56 AM (GMT 0)
That first link also says that Lyme Disease is not sexually transmitted.
Based on that statement, I'm going to take the rest of it with a grain of salt.


Oh, and that BB doesn't form cysts that protect itself from antibiotics. We have seen them under magnification. Whether the BB "formed" them or caused them to form around them, he's wrong on that too.

Post Edited (julymorning) : 2/1/2017 9:00:50 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 2/2/2017 4:45 AM (GMT 0)
They say you cant herx from bartonella too..but thats bs ...sarah v has microscopic bacteria on her brain ....
Posted 2/2/2017 5:18 AM (GMT 0)
There's no point in responding. He's made his decision. It's his to make.

His continuing to post serves no purpose except to act as a troll and stir up people's emotions and ire. Don't allow yourself to engage.
Posted 2/2/2017 5:19 AM (GMT 0)
Not worth reading...


Pages and pages of misinformation.
Posted 2/2/2017 10:41 AM (GMT 0)
Been a while since I looked into this so I don't know whether this is still the current understanding but last I checked you're correct on the "neurotoxins". One study says borrelia doesn't have LPS, another says it does, another says LPS-like structures. In either case I'm not sure what the point of this post is since borrelia definitely has its own spectrum of immunogenic substances and some of them are indirectly toxic to the nervous system such as OspA
Posted 2/2/2017 1:48 PM (GMT 0)
I do invite you to look the 'about' page for ALDF. Any of those members ring a bell? Sharpio, Wormser? ALDF is a special interest group representing IDSA. Four of its six board members sat on the IDSA Lyme guidelines panel. The other two members are neither patients, doctors nor researchers. One works for an executive search firm and one researches financial investments.
Posted 2/2/2017 2:53 PM (GMT 0)
As Mistercamp said, what you don't likely know, is that that site - ALDF - is a Lyme denial site. They often make false statements (that have been proven wrong) like: "A new term, post-treatment Lyme disease syndrome, has been coined for those who had Lyme disease but whose symptoms remain, although there is no good evidence that these symptoms can be attributed to persistent Lyme infection. There is no scientific controversy, however, that “chronic Lyme disease,” as applied to patients with nonspecific symptoms who show no objective evidence that they have been infected with Lyme disease, is a fabricated disease."

I would encourage you to learn more about the sites you visit and their stance on the different stages/aspects of the disease to help you understand if it's accurate information or if it's just more misinformation that is being put out there.
Posted 2/2/2017 3:21 PM (GMT 0)
Is this guy a troll? Seems like he only wants to instigate.
Posted 2/2/2017 3:30 PM (GMT 0)

njfillet said...
Is this guy a troll? Seems like he only wants to instigate.

Most likely, just misinformed. It's hard to believe for many that the agencies put in place and doctors that are supposed to help ensure that we don't have to live through things like this, would actually put out misleading information and ignore those of us that are actually going through these things.
Posted 2/2/2017 4:09 PM (GMT 0)

jrpsf said...
Hey Doug-What ever your point is---Thanks, but NO thanks.

The point is: if you or any other poster have credible evidence to show that Bb produces neurotoxins, please post it.

njfillet said...
Is this guy a troll? Seems like he only wants to instigate.

Alternative viewpoints should not be confused with instigation.

girlie said...
Pages and pages of misinformation.

Where specifically?

mistercamp said...
Sharpio, Wormser? ALDF is a special interest group representing IDSA. Four of its six board members sat on the IDSA Lyme guidelines panel. The other two members are neither patients, doctors nor researchers. One works for an executive search firm and one researches financial investments.

Don't attack the messengers, attack the message. If a claim is true, it doesn't matter who makes it. One could easily call ILADS a "special interest group" and point the finger at LLMDs for making a lot of money off of Lyme patients (veritable Lyme or otherwise), hence a conflict of interest. I am only interested in the facts.
Posted 2/2/2017 4:16 PM (GMT 0)
What's the point of all of this?

This forum is for trying to heal from a debilitating disease from which many of us are struggling.

Not arguing whether or not it exists.

Can we just stop it with all this stuff?
Posted 2/2/2017 4:19 PM (GMT 0)
It takes a ton of research to come up with the articles that you are requesting. Are they out there - yes. Are they easy to find? No, because the articles that don't match up with what a medical society chooses to believe about any condition will not get into medical journals, nor will it be published in other places, except for a few "daring" online sites - but those are the ones that are called "rogue" or "special interest groups that are promoting misinformation".

Honestly, I compare that to someone who is cheating on their spouse accusing the spouse of cheating (happened to me, lol!) - It's not that the rogue sites/people that are in the wrong - their science is good and can be repeated/duplicated if someone actually chooses to do it. It's simply a 'information war' and there are few rules in 'war'.

What exactly are you looking for? I may be of some help. I've been at this for a while now. wink
Posted 2/2/2017 4:39 PM (GMT 0)
You do realize there are over 700 per reviewed studies contradicting what IDSA believes. As other members have pointed out this is a forum for people to share information related to healing, not debating its existence. And what would you propose the alternative is here, all members here are making it up? Chronic Lyme doesn't exist?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-c32zBjCGh9aUxrcXJQcEMxQzA/view

It’s 81 pages long with references to 226 peer-reviewed medical journal articles. It not only directly disputes the IDSA Guidelines statements, it demonstrates how the IDSA Guidelines authors themselves are contradicting their own published work.
Posted 2/2/2017 5:02 PM (GMT 0)

Mustard Seed said...
What's the point of all of this?

The point is that since it seems very likely that Bb does not produce neurotoxins, those patients who are ingesting supplements to "detox" are wasting their money and possibly taking a health risk.

Mustard Seed said...
This forum is for trying to heal from a debilitating disease...not arguing whether or not it exists.

Nobody is making that claim.
Posted 2/2/2017 5:29 PM (GMT 0)
Well, it may seem that Bb doesn't produce neurotoxins to you, but it's quite obvious to many of us - and that's just because we have had a lot of time to try different things. Lyme disease is not the 'first stop' for many of us.

As for detoxing, I was one of the first two to start promoting it here on this site and elsewhere. Not many at all were detoxing back in 2007 - 2010 - but after I healed the first time (I got reinfected), and detoxing was a huge part of how I managed to 'come back' after a horrible experience with abx, I started talking about it. It turns out, many Lyme patients feel MUCH better with detoxing than without - so even if your statements were true, we still find we feel better when detoxing.

And, you are basing your opinion on what I (and many others) happen to know to be misinformation - I've done the research for approximately the last 17 years - and I wasn't willing to be convinced easily. I found it hard to believe that the medical establishment could ignore such a vile, widespread issue, yet it has.

You simply need to do more research, with an open mind.
Posted 2/2/2017 7:19 PM (GMT 0)

DougFresh said...

The point is that since it seems very likely that Bb does not produce neurotoxins, those patients who are ingesting supplements to "detox" are wasting their money and possibly taking a health risk.

I can assure you from my own experience that effective treatment for lyme produces something very, very toxic. I don't know exactly what kind of toxin it is but it makes you feel like having super strong hangover. So it's something obvious that people will do everything possible to detox those toxins to feel better.
Posted 2/2/2017 9:15 PM (GMT 0)
Google Sam Donta, Lyme Research, Neurotoxins. Sam supposedly discovered the toxin while running a research lab at Boston University Medical Center. He was an ID duck who was the only dissenting vote on the IDSA committee that wrote the current Lyme Guidelines. He never did join ILADS, but was a frequent speaker at their conferences. He did both research and clinical work, and finally retired last year.
Posted 2/2/2017 9:42 PM (GMT 0)
i've been wondering why my head feels like a cotton ball for the last 2+ years directly correlated to when i take lyme killing stuff. here i thought it was toxins released from the dead bugs but apparently i'm mistaken! ;o)

seriously i like seeing stuff from other sources we should always be challenged with our thinking especially in this area where there is so much more to learn. antibiotics are like napalm they blast every bacteria crawling around in our system. who knows precisely what all the effects are of this mass die off to our systems?
Posted 2/2/2017 10:06 PM (GMT 0)

DougFresh said...

Mustard Seed said...
What's the point of all of this?

The point is that since it seems very likely that Bb does not produce neurotoxins, those patients who are ingesting supplements to "detox" are wasting their money and possibly taking a health risk.

Mustard Seed said...
This forum is for trying to heal from a debilitating disease...not arguing whether or not it exists.

Nobody is making that claim.

Doug this shows a fundamental lack of understanding of chronic infections on your part. Borrelia DOES produce substances that are immunogenic otherwise people wouldn't be sick with inflammatory illness. I'm not sure the full list has been explored but OspA is a good example and can initiate the formation of antineural antibodies as well as has been implicated in Lyme arthritis. I won't validate all detox methods but there is no reason to throw a blanket statement that they are a waste of time when the bacteria clearly produces components that stimulate illness whether they be classical toxins or toxic indirectly through induction of inflammatory response. Unless a particular point is relevant to the health of individuals here (don't use substance A to detox substance B because B doesn't exist and A is expensive/toxic) you are approaching the point of semantics on a board of ill people who could care less if their bile acid sequestrants were binding immunogens or exotoxins. None of us have the answers here and we're all sick so we do what feels right with the info available

Post Edited (Psilociraptor) : 2/2/2017 3:33:09 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 2/3/2017 12:20 AM (GMT 0)
Dougfresh,

I studied the information on the websites that you provided, and was quite surprised at the level of patent ignorance expressed by purported members of the lyme community. My daughter is well today, but she wouldn't be if I had accepted the erroneous paradigms that ALDF, IDSA, and Sarah Vaughter preaches. Ultimately, an "alternative paradigm" yielded the treatment approach that healed my daughter. My daughter is not alone, so the actual reality is that many patients have been helped or healed by alternative approaches. As Traveler has already stated, it was quite common years ago to see the almost universal blogospheric smearing of the various alternative approaches, but things have changed.

Those propaganda entities are wrong on so many issues. I have learned long ago that the IDSA paradigm is based on nothing more than a twisting and manipulation of science.

As to the specific issue of neurotoxins... here is my thinking on the issue. Sarah Vaughter disallows a claim as to the existence of any toxins produced by Borrelia bacteria. That just doesn't make any sense at all. How can an invading pathogenic microbe not secrete toxic metabolic substances? How is it possible that the die-off of such pathogens would not produce toxic substances? Millions of people all over the world die from sepsis every year. Why would it be so difficult to believe that Borrelia and related coinfections also produce harmful toxins? As to the specific issue of neuro-toxicity, the people on this forum aren't simpletons that were born yesterday. It may not fit the parameters of so-called "science", but the simple observation of cause-and-effect has been sufficiently accurate enough to conclude that neurotoxins are present during an LD syndrome illness. The same observations apply to detoxification as well. There are plenty of people that have put a temporary hold on antimicrobial treatments of various types, and have felt better by simply detoxing.

The real issue is whether we are compelled to believe everything that is issued from any particular segment of the "scientific" community. I think not. The forum membership is desirous for the state of science to catch up someday!

Sarah Vaughter speaks as one who seems to be an opponent of the LD community. Frankly, I don't have a high opinion of pharma ABX therapy, because it was so harmful to my daughter. Nonetheless, I would never label the physicians who prescribe them as "quacks", yet she takes the liberty of smearing effective alternative strategies as quackery. So what's her agenda? She seems like a reasonably intelligent person. I don't know whether she is terribly misinformed, or rather, whether she has an ulterior motive.

Doug- I don't know you. If you are sincere and seeking the truth, I would urge you to have an open mind, and to accurately discern fact from fiction.

Don
Posted 2/3/2017 11:03 AM (GMT 0)
I haven't read the links provided and don't want to get into the middle of a debate, but my research has shown that what the original poster is saying is correct. It's in the semantics that there is an issue. Technically, Borrelia does not produce endo or exotoxins. I'll give him that. But that does not change the fact that Borrelia induces some of the worst metabolic consequences known in the scientific community. I could go into this and that of it, but that doesn't matter. Anyone attempting to dissipate the mountain of harmful effects that can be caused by Borrelia is simply incorrect. They are devastating.
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