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Artemisia vs Artemisinin for Babesia

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Posted 2/16/2016 4:12 AM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...

So, some LLMD's still do use the Artemisinin...including THE Dr. J....but it isn't used daily - it is pulsed - Monday/Wed/Friday, along with Mepron.
I think Dr. M.R. has you take it for three days, and then eleven off.

It's so difficult to decide what to do...

I had these exact same thoughts.

It took me seemingly forever to decide to even take Artemisinin. At first I was going to do it Buhner's way (I definitely herxed on the stuff).

Then I decided to pulse it and use up the 30 days supply I had because I still wanted to follow Buhner's recommendations.

It was most effective for me in the beginning and the way I did things was obviously convoluted - I just couldn't decide what to do.

I haven't herxed with Babs symptoms since the early days of the Babs protocol. Not sure what that means but I have no plans on taking Artemisinin again.

Yep, still convoluted but I'm s-l-o-w-l-y improving.

Hope you find what works for you and your path is more clear than mine was ;)
Posted 2/16/2016 4:14 AM (GMT 0)
Girlie, the thing that has helped my babesia the most is cryptolepis. I had a tough time tolerating any babesia meds, they were all very harsh with side effects on me. Insomnia and ear ringing were the ones that drove me nuts. I took a super dose of cryptolepis to see if I'd herx and boy did I ever. After that, I knew it'd work so I started back at a lower dose and have been working up from there.
Posted 2/16/2016 4:27 AM (GMT 0)

PeteZa said...
I was interested in this thread because I have or had Babs. Cryptolepis was what really helped me. I never went near the Artemisinin because of Buhner's advice on not taking it on his web site. Which is information from his first book. Now on his second edition he still does not recommend this herb. He states: (page 387) And Buhner list this herb as Artemisinin (Artemisia annua)

Note: Artemisinin begins to become less present in the blood the longer it is taken; by day seven the constituent is only present at 24 percent of its day one levels. The isolated constituent is not very effective if taken longer than seven days at a time for parasitical infections. It if doesn't work for babesia (or whatever) within a few weeks to a month, it is not going to. Pulsing will not help.

(page 386)

Caution: I have heard from several people with Lyme disease that they have been taking the herb for one or two years at relative high doses. This is highly contraindicated and should not be done under any circumstances. I repeat: This is a really bad idea. Artemisinin is extremely safe when used appropriately, that is in doses around 1,200 mg daily for seven days (and it's probably fine for a month or two if you really want to do it that long). If used long term in high doses, there is a significant risk of neurotoxicity, that is, damage to the central nervous system and brain. Sida Acuta, Alchornea, Cryptolepis, and Bidens are all much safer alternatives for long-term use, especially if you are treating any of the Lyme-group of microbes.

sorry if I made any typos - it is early out here.


I second this especially that it is not good to stay on artemisinin long term. I have been around the circuit at lyme clinics and some of the most difficult babesia cases to get rid of I have seen is with patients that stayed on artemisinin too long. I can't tell you exact science but the parasite gets more resistant ( see study of new malaria now resistant to artemisinin in Indian mountains from excess use in India ).

I don't agree with Buhner exactly. I took high dose artemisinin for 7-10 days then stopped. I did this 3 times. I do have an actual before and after blood test that shows it put my babesia in remission. I strongly believe artemisinin works sometimes and other times it doesn't.

( side note: I took just regular Artemisinin )
Posted 2/16/2016 5:23 AM (GMT 0)
Jackie - how long between each session (you said you took it 7-10 days - three times)?
Posted 2/15/2017 9:32 PM (GMT 0)
Bump
Posted 2/15/2017 10:04 PM (GMT 0)
Something strange about the dates showing on this thread...

I ended up doing 4 days on and 11 days off when I took the Artemisinin.
Posted 2/15/2017 10:14 PM (GMT 0)
Yeah it says you posted today. Lol
Posted 2/15/2017 10:51 PM (GMT 0)

PaulnJordansmommy2 said...
Yeah it says you posted today. Lol

This was in 2016 .... it says several of us posted today...
Posted 2/15/2017 11:34 PM (GMT 0)

TOOTY said...
I am somewhat confused as to why one would use Zhang's artemisia products when artemisia annua is very cheap. Economically speaking, using other brands would make more sense. I just can't see spending approximately $2 per pill unless his product is really that much better.

And, Buhner more recently cautions about using Red root because it can thicken the blood. Also, astragalus can be problematic for some with chronic lyme.

I'm on my phone so I can't type a long answer.

Zhang Artemisiae-2 is the strongest you can buy over the counter. It's dihydroartemisinin.

Zhang Artemisiae is the second strongest you can buy OTC. It's artesunate.

Both dihydroartemisinin and artesunate are much, much more potent that artemisia (whole herb) or artemisinin.

Out of these 4, artemisimin is the only one that has to be pulsed. Zhang's products, and the whole herb, do not have to be pulsed.

If you're serious about this stuff, use Zhang's IMO.
Also, read Schaller's book on artemesia or his book on Babesia.

Edit: I knew this was an old thread! Looked familiar, I'm not going crazy! Well the info here if anyone wants it.
Posted 2/16/2017 12:06 AM (GMT 0)
MS - I wonder why he doesn't have Artesunate on the bottle..or dihydroartemisinin.

This is what it says...but I don't have a bottle of it...just looked on a site:

Extract of Artemesia annua (entire plant), red root, sage root, and astragalus root. 350 mg
Posted 2/16/2017 2:12 AM (GMT 0)
Hi Girlie!

Have you been taking the Artesunate 200 mg?

What are your thoughts on switching to Artemesin sp? haha

My son has been on Artesunate 200 mg 7 days on 7 days off since beg December. He has really improved since then - but then he also started Japanese knot weed and gou teng (chinese cats claw) around end of december so it may be the herbs too!

Did you know artesunate is an anticancer med too?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4484515/

Hope you are doing well!
Posted 2/16/2017 2:40 AM (GMT 0)
I just had to check my bottle - I had forgotten the dose was 200 mg per cap.
So I never got to the twice daily dosing and even having trouble taking the one capsule more than 4 days in a row.

I wouldn't switch to Artemisinin if you can get more Artesunate.
According to what I've read on this forum, Artesunate is stronger.

I do have a bottle of Artemisinin though.

So your son has only been on the Art, JK and CC? Hmmm...msybe I should be more diligent with the Art.

Would you mind sharing with me why you chose that CC (gou teng) over the other CC . I'm curious.

What does his LLND say about only doing half dose?
Posted 2/16/2017 2:41 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks for sharing the article - Yes, I had read that...another reason to start taking it regularly.
Posted 2/16/2017 3:00 AM (GMT 0)
He is on the Art, JKW gou teng and the same old Azithromycin 250 mg.

I started him on the gou teng for brain fog and his brain fog has definitely improved. Now whether it is the jkw or the Artesunate, it is hard to say. He took BB bab 2 which has the peruvian cat's claw (uncaria tomentosa) for four months so I thought he had already tried that. I did order it, and will probably use it later again.

We just had our tel appt. with Dr. C today. He wants him to go up to 50 drops 2/day with the jkw and gou teng!

He didn't want him to increase the Artesunate, so my son has been at 200 mg the whole time. Some weeks by the 3rd day, he is not feeling great from it or a random weird symptom flares up, but these have definitely improved each round.

I ordered houttuynia as well and have put off starting it, but Dr. C wants him to start now. I asked what it helps with and he said brain fog. So that's interesting.
Posted 2/16/2017 3:34 AM (GMT 0)
That's a lot of JK - I would take that dose and divide into three doses.
That's equivalent to approx one full dropper 3 X daily.
Or is three times daily dosing difficult to schedule?

The Houttuynia is part of bartonella protocol.

Does your son have Bart? (Sorry, I can't remember)


Well, your son is improving quickly, so keep up the good work, mama!
You must be ecstatic with his progress
Posted 2/16/2017 3:45 AM (GMT 0)
Ya, 3/day is hard with school. Isn't that a large dose? But TCM does use very large doses I've been reading. (I'm not saying Dr. C is using TCM) I emailed the doctor at www.itmonline.org, super, super nice person and he said that TCM uses much larger doses, so I found that interesting.

As always, the patient (my son lol) will guide the tx. If it's too much, we'll titrate back.

I ordered the houttuynia for bartonella, but was curious what symptom Dr. C thought it would help with most and was a little bit surprised when he said brain fog. So we will start on the weekend. One drop in three ounces of water and take one ounce/day to start.

I think my son has bartonella - he volunteered at a cat clinic for a week in Indonesia and was bitten and scratched many times. This was back when his dream was to be a vet. He had constant conjuctivitis, anxiety/ocd, I thought he had growing pains, it was prob bart shin pain, constant ENT problems.

He is improving! He gets very tired from school, but is happy to be there. He can't tolerate any real exercise - although Dr. C really wants him to do moderate weight circuit training to spark the mitochondria.

I am soo happy and feeling grateful! Esp to all the wonderful people here.

We will still have to work on bartonella, mycoplasma and cpn lol but quality of life is so much better!!
Posted 2/16/2017 4:02 AM (GMT 0)
i think that is a high amount to start off..and he may not even get to that amount , but it is within Buhners recommended dosing amounts.

But...we're all different - and your son could herx on a lot less..

Hmm...brain fog - I will look it up in my Bart book later.

Oh, yes now I remember your son's story volunteering at the cat clinic.

Was his Babs treatment the BB Bab-2 along with Zithromax and Artesunate? Or was there more to it?
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