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Posted 5/25/2017 2:39 AM (GMT 0)
I have been having symptoms for years and within the last 2 years my ANA has been elevated so it was assumed to be some sort of autoimmune disease that couldn't be pin pointed.
Anyway, my symptoms have progressed horribly and having a hard time even functioning. Finally the thought was to test for Lyme but I honestly don't know if I have been tested correctly. My ANA is normal right now but my CD57 is low and my ALT is high. The "unreliable" basic Lyme test is normal.
I was told due to my symptoms and the low CD57 I have Lyme by one of my doctors. The other doctor obviously doesn't know anything about Lyme because he said my labs were okay.
I'm so confused and my husband doesn't believe I actually have Lyme because the basic test says negative. I'm in a lot of pain.
What tests should I be having? And I would like a referral to see a LLMD. I'm in California.
Posted 5/25/2017 3:24 AM (GMT 0)
I'm not in CA, but my 3 Western blot Lyme tests never showed 5 positive bands, including the IGENEX test. My tests were declared negative, although they all showed positive band 41 for flagella. Human cells don't have flagella (tails for swimming), but Lyme bacteria cells do. What bands were positive in your tests?

The only way I got proof positive of my Lyme was live blood analysis under a 5000x microscope. Maybe there's someone in a Lyme chapter in your area who knows someone who can provide this service. Mine cost $195 out of pocket.

Personally, I think western blot is almost worthless and live blood analysis is the only way to be sure.

Best of Luck and hope this helps!
Posted 5/25/2017 3:53 AM (GMT 0)
Sorry I have to post this and run but here are 3 places I suggest. Contact them for a better lyme test: I did Igenex because I am in California. Sorry this is quick, but I have to get. Back tomorrow.


DNA Connexions - https://dnaconnexions.com/index.html
DNA CONNEXIONS
4685 Centennial Blvd,
Colorado Springs, Co 80919
Tel: 719-219-2826
Toll Free: 888-843-5832
Fax: 719-548-8220
Email: [email protected]



Advanced Lab - https://dnaconnexions.com/index.html
Advanced Laboratory Services Inc.
501 Elmwood Ave.
Sharon Hill, PA 19079
Phone 855-238-4949
Fax 855-238-4946

Igenexx - http://www.igenex.com/

795 San Antonio Rd, Palo Alto, CA 94303, USA
US: (800) 832-3200
International: +1 (650) 424-1191
Email: [email protected]
Posted 5/25/2017 6:35 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks so much for the info. I'm not really even sure what labs I did get. And what are bands and which test does that? I will look at my labs further if someone could tell me I'm looking at or what to look for. I will also look at what was referred too for the testing.
Anything helpful for the pain anyone can suggest? I'm having horrible joint and nerve symptoms. May wrists and ankles hurt the most but starting to feel muscle pain all over now and I have the shooting stabbing nerve pain in my fingers that doesn't go away. My fingertips at times also get ice cold, which I have never had before. I get the nerve pain into my feet too but it's not as bad.
Motrin and Tylenol do nothing. They put me on a butrans patch and that is not helping either.
Posted 5/25/2017 7:38 AM (GMT 0)

Aylett said...
I'm not in CA, but my 3 Western blot Lyme tests never showed 5 positive bands, including the IGENEX test. My tests were declared negative, although they all showed positive band 41 for flagella. Human cells don't have flagella (tails for swimming), but Lyme bacteria cells do. What bands were positive in your tests?

The only way I got proof positive of my Lyme was live blood analysis under a 5000x microscope. Maybe there's someone in a Lyme chapter in your area who knows someone who can provide this service. Mine cost $195 out of pocket.

Personally, I think western blot is almost worthless and live blood analysis is the only way to be sure.

Best of Luck and hope this helps!

For IgM it is only 2 positive bands required for a positive result.

The Igenex WB is worth the $210. Even with out a positive test result...there can be positive lyme specific bands that are enough to back up a clinical diagnosis.
Posted 5/25/2017 7:44 AM (GMT 0)
Hi TempleLee - welcome to our community!

The Igenex Lyme Western Blot Igm and IgG is still one of the better Lyme tests - total cost $210. You can call them and order a test kit, then take to a Dr. to sign the lab req.

For help finding a LLMD, just start a new thread titled: "Looking for LLMD in/near ______" and fill in the blank with the area in California.
Then enable your email option so members can send you names. We don't post the names on the forum for privacy reasons.

You can also contact ILADS for LLMD names:

ilads.org/ilads_media/physician-referral/

And you can contact me -and I will check my list and send you names that I have for the area you are looking.
Just click on the envelope below my screen name on the left.

We encourage our new members tor had through the thread at the top of the page titled: "New to Lyme?..Start Here!" It's packed full of useful information.
Posted 5/25/2017 7:51 AM (GMT 0)

TempleLee said...
Thanks so much for the info. I'm not really even sure what labs I did get. And what are bands and which test does that? I will look at my labs further if someone could tell me I'm looking at or what to look for. I will also look at what was referred too for the testing.
Anything helpful for the pain anyone can suggest? I'm having horrible joint and nerve symptoms. May wrists and ankles hurt the most but starting to feel muscle pain all over now and I have the shooting stabbing nerve pain in my fingers that doesn't go away. My fingertips at times also get ice cold, which I have never had before. I get the nerve pain into my feet too but it's not as bad.
Motrin and Tylenol do nothing. They put me on a butrans patch and that is not helping either.

The bands are on the Western Blot test.
It will say something like "positive"...or "present" next to the band numbers.

Do you have your lab test results? You could use a third party photo site like photobucket.com tinypic.com and post a link here so we can see the results.

OR - you can type out the results in a post.

I'm sorry you have the nerve pain. Some people get a prescription medication called Gabepentin for the pain.
It doesn't work for everyone, but many people do get relief with it.
Posted 5/25/2017 10:22 AM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...

Aylett said...
I'm not in CA, but my 3 Western blot Lyme tests never showed 5 positive bands, including the IGENEX test. My tests were declared negative, although they all showed positive band 41 for flagella. Human cells don't have flagella (tails for swimming), but Lyme bacteria cells do. What bands were positive in your tests?

The only way I got proof positive of my Lyme was live blood analysis under a 5000x microscope. Maybe there's someone in a Lyme chapter in your area who knows someone who can provide this service. Mine cost $195 out of pocket.

Personally, I think western blot is almost worthless and live blood analysis is the only way to be sure.

Best of Luck and hope this helps!

For IgM it is only 2 positive bands required for a positive result.

The Igenex WB is worth the $210. Even with out a positive test result...there can be positive lyme specific bands that are enough to back up a clinical diagnosis.

Hi Girlie
My doctor had me take the Igenex Lyme test IgG & IgM with titer measurement and without tests for coinfections. The cost was $499 from IGENEX, and I wrote the check payable to IGENEX. The IgM and IgG were positive for band 41 only. My doctor gave the 5 band positive info to match the CDC. I understand that IGENEX requires 2 bands to be positive for one to have Lyme. By either criteria, I was negative and the cause of my symptoms indeterminate. Yet the live blood analysis showed lyme, cell wall deficient Lyme, and cysts in biofilm. Personally, I'd like to have my $499 back. $210 is quite a discount to that. I wonder why the difference?

Also, the person who did my live blood analysis is an ILADs member and quite knowledgeable. She claimed the western blot and the IGENEX do not properly detect most strains of Lyme. Not sure if she's right, but based on my first western blot, I had an NP tell me I was positive. When my symptoms didn't go away after 60 days of doxycycline, she referred me to an MD rheumatologist, who told me I never had Lyme and wasted a year of my deteriorating health on a false diagnosis of osteo arthritis with corresponding useless prescriptions. After the IGENEX test, my current doctor, an LLMD, told me that he couldn't be sure whether I had Lyme, but would treat me for it anyway. Western Blot by Lab Corps and IGENEX have cost me a lot of money and led to misdirected treatment. I am very angry that there aren't better tests out there, easily available to the general public, especially since the medical world has known about Lyme for over 30 years.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. All the best to you. Aylett
Posted 5/25/2017 10:38 AM (GMT 0)

TempleLee said...
Thanks so much for the info. I'm not really even sure what labs I did get. And what are bands and which test does that? I will look at my labs further if someone could tell me I'm looking at or what to look for. I will also look at what was referred too for the testing.
Anything helpful for the pain anyone can suggest? I'm having horrible joint and nerve symptoms. May wrists and ankles hurt the most but starting to feel muscle pain all over now and I have the shooting stabbing nerve pain in my fingers that doesn't go away. My fingertips at times also get ice cold, which I have never had before. I get the nerve pain into my feet too but it's not as bad.
Motrin and Tylenol do nothing. They put me on a butrans patch and that is not helping either.

Hi TempleLee
The western blot tests for bands (types) of antibodies that are your body's reaction to an invading bacteria. It does not test for the bacteria itself.
I have the same type of hand pain and coldness. The person who did my live blood analysis said that Lyme disease forms biofilms, which are clear gelatinous structures in our larger blood vessels. The Lyme uses these structures to live in community and to avoid detection by our immune system. Pieces of these biofilm break off and are carried by the bloodstream into our extremities, our hands and feet, where they clog capillaries and starve cells for oxygen and nutrients. This starvation causes pain. Further, Lyme feeds on collagen in joints. In secreting chemicals to cause the breakdown of joints, such that the collagen can be eaten, we get thinness of joint materials, friction in the joints, and a lot of pain.
I encourage you to use Girlie's list and find a Lyme literate MD who will diagnose based on your symptoms rather than only on test results. Based on my personal experience of two years of declining health before someone would finally provide long-term treatment for Lyme disease, I can only say the sooner you find a knowledgeable doctor who will treat you, the better. Best regards, Aylett
Posted 5/25/2017 12:21 PM (GMT 0)
Just stopping by to welcome you to this supportive, caring and knowledgeable community!
Posted 5/25/2017 5:06 PM (GMT 0)

Aylett said...


Hi Girlie
My doctor had me take the Igenex Lyme test IgG & IgM with titer measurement and without tests for coinfections. The cost was $499 from IGENEX, and I wrote the check payable to IGENEX. The IgM and IgG were positive for band 41 only. My doctor gave the 5 band positive info to match the CDC. I understand that IGENEX requires 2 bands to be positive for one to have Lyme. By either criteria, I was negative and the cause of my symptoms indeterminate. Yet the live blood analysis showed lyme, cell wall deficient Lyme, and cysts in biofilm. Personally, I'd like to have my $499 back. $210 is quite a discount to that. I wonder why the difference?

Also, the person who did my live blood analysis is an ILADs member and quite knowledgeable. She claimed the western blot and the IGENEX do not properly detect most strains of Lyme. Not sure if she's right, but based on my first western blot, I had an NP tell me I was positive. When my symptoms didn't go away after 60 days of doxycycline, she referred me to an MD rheumatologist, who told me I never had Lyme and wasted a year of my deteriorating health on a false diagnosis of osteo arthritis with corresponding useless prescriptions. After the IGENEX test, my current doctor, an LLMD, told me that he couldn't be sure whether I had Lyme, but would treat me for it anyway. Western Blot by Lab Corps and IGENEX have cost me a lot of money and led to misdirected treatment. I am very angry that there aren't better tests out there, easily available to the general public, especially since the medical world has known about Lyme for over 30 years.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. All the best to you. Aylett

You must have had more than the Lyme WB IgM and IgG - most likely the lyme Panel A:
The WB IgM and IgG is still $210. Here's a link to prices:


www.igenex.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/BS-WS-001-PRICE-LIST-FOR-WEBSITE-REV-001-12-20-2016.pdf

and nope - CDC positive is two bands positive out of: 23-25, 39, and 41.
(It is a short list though)

I'm so sorry for your treatment. A LLMD shouldn't be solely looking at test results. A clinical diagnosis is pertinent.
Many - maybe most of us with lyme do pull up band 41 positive.
Posted 5/25/2017 9:05 PM (GMT 0)
You're right, with western blot, CDC standard for IgM is 2 bands, the test says CDC standard for IgG is 5 bands. TempleLee, if you're reading this, IgM is current antibody production. IgG is past antibody production. Hope you get a Lyme literate doctor who treats on the basis of symptoms and does not rely solely on tests. For me with western blot testing, which seems to be the prevalent test right now, the test results became less conclusive the worse my symptoms got. At 6 months into the disease I had 3 bands positive. At 2 years, I had 2 bands positive, at 2 years and a month, I had 1 band positive. Lyme shuts down your immune system with some proteins called cytokines and uses other cytokine proteins to sidetrack the immune system into thinking the infection is in the digestive system instead of the blood vessels and joints. Thus, the more Lyme takes over the less immune system activity the western blot can detect.
Posted 5/27/2017 1:34 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you everyone. I think my blot tests were negative, I will look further and probably post my results to get some insight. My CD57 was low, I know that for sure. I thought I had RA because my mother tests positive for that, but I don't. This most recent lab test showed negative for ANA, but I've tested positive for that in the past. I am definitely going to look into a LLMD, just hoping to find a good one. Also interested in the live blood analysis, where can you get that? I'm currently seeing a reg MD and a naturopath. My md says I don't have it because my tests were negative but he said nothing about the CD57, probably because he doesn't even know what that is. My naturopath is the one who ordered the CD57 and results are low, and he says I have Lyme. I do have a majority of symptoms, that's why the original thought of RA or some other autoimmune disease.
Posted 5/27/2017 2:43 AM (GMT 0)
Hi TempleLee,
I understand about low CD57. On 1/25, my CD57 was 78, which is barely above minimum acceptable: 60. If you have low CD57 natural killer immune cells, that's a good indication that Lyme disease has taken control, or at least partial control of your immune system. The acceptable range is 60-360. The fact that Lyme has at least partially taken control of your immune system would explain why your Western blot test results are negative when your symptoms indicate Lyme disease. BTW, Lyme disease arthritis is a lot like rheumatoid arthritis, but hopefully more easily reversed once we find the right treatment.

As far as your MD saying you don't have lyme because of negative test results, I recommend that you get a list of Lyme disease literate doctors in California and find a new doctor. Since test results for Lyme disease are actually test results for antibodies, lack of antibodies doesn't prove anything. I believed an M.D. who said I didn't have Lyme disease and suffered declining health and increasing arthritis from December 2015 to January 2017, when I finally got rid of my rheumatologist and got a doctor who knew about Lyme. Thankfully now I'm on a treatment program and feeling a little better, although I'm definitely not ready to start playing tennis again.

Regarding live blood analysis, most practitioners operate under the radar because the FDA has not approved this as a valid test for Lyme disease, despite the fact that it is simply using a microscope to see the actual bacteria and prove it is present. Unfortunately bureaucrats can be very stubborn even when facing a simple solution to a problem. I live on the East Coast, and I went to a local Lyme disease Chapter meeting. I got the tester's name from the chapter head. I then drove over 90 miles to see this lady. It was such a relief to finally see the lyme and know what the problem was, after conflicting information from eight previous medical practitioners. You need to find a Lyme chapter meeting so you can find someone local to do live blood analysis.

Even if you can't find someone to give you live blood analysis, the most important thing is to find a doctor who will put you on long-term antibiotics and recommend a supplement program along with it to start turning back the spread of Lyme disease within your body. I can say from experience that a year of unchecked spread of Lyme disease is debilitating in hands wrists neck shoulders elbows knees feet lower back and muscle tendons in general, plus other symptoms. I think you're in California, and I think Girlie said she might have a list of Lyme literate doctors around you. From what you've said thus far, I would advise you to find a new doctor immediately, no matter how much you like your current one. A lot of doctors seem to be so bound by lab testing that they can no longer trust their own diagnostic skills based on the patient's symptoms. I think your current M.D. has that problem. With my M.D. rheumatologist, I witnessed it firsthand. Here's hoping you find the right M.D. and start getting better! Many hugs, Aylett
Posted 5/27/2017 3:09 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you Aylett. I appreciate your time. It is even hard for me to be typing anymore..... Anyway, my CD57 is 54 and I am very symptomatic..... is there different blot tests? Mine does not show any bands? The test I had was Lyme Ab/Western Blot Reflex? Yes, I don't trust my regular doctor on this because he is not educated on the matter. I am definitely going to find a LLMD.
Posted 5/27/2017 3:37 AM (GMT 0)
My Western blot was a Labcorps Lyme disease, Western blot, serum test. I suspect it is the same test you had. I don't see any point in having more tests if your CD57 is already below 60. I agree with your naturopath. It sounds like Lyme has reduced your immune system to a very low level. I also agree with finding an LLMD as soon as possible. By the way, my hands hurt bad enough from Lyme arthritis and biofilms clogging my capillaries that I purchased a dictation software from Best Buy. Dragon for home software costs $69 as I recall. I do have to use my hands to type at work, although lyme has reduced me to 15 hours a week. Dragon has been a lifesaver, as far as preserving my hands from typing at home. I also have a new keyboard at work hp 803181-001 USB slim KB, which has a lot more cushioning when one types. Still I understand your frustration with typing. It hurts a lot.
Posted 5/27/2017 4:21 AM (GMT 0)
Well I just found out I had the wrong western blot test because my reg dr ordered the wrong one. My naturopath said I need the one that shows the bands. Obviously my reg dr has no idea. These severe symptoms are all new to me.....
Posted 5/27/2017 4:35 AM (GMT 0)
TempleLee - I thought all Western blots show bands.

Maybe your Dr. ordered the Elisa or the IFA?
Posted 5/27/2017 5:53 AM (GMT 0)
The one I had was called Lyme Ab/Western Blot Reflex which showed no bands. I don't get it..... The one I was suppose to have was Western Blot Test serum, also known as borrelia burgdorferi antibodies. I was told from a Labcorp employee that the reflex test was the more extensive test which included the other test? So wrong on that. Scary that Labcorp employees are misinformed.
Posted 5/27/2017 5:33 PM (GMT 0)
Hi TempleLee,
At least according to an article I read on tiredofLyme.com, CD57 is an excellent test for Lyme, because this white blood cell/natural killer cell is especially formulated by the body to be attracted to the cell wall type for Lyme bacteria. Lyme secretes cytokines to reduce CD57 production, in order to survive in the body. With your CD57 result, according to this author, you know you have Lyme. Now you just need treatment.
I hope you find an LLMD soon.
All the best, Aylett
Posted 5/27/2017 5:48 PM (GMT 0)
Hi TempleLee,
Welcome to our community. I'm glad you found us.

I'm so very sorry for all the confusion you have faced to this point, but it's common. The reflex test is NOT the one that will show bands, or test for more anything. It's simply a test to see if your immune system is responding to the bacteria, it doesn't even show up with 'bands' marked as to which antibodies might be present.

And, if you do get a Western Blot, you need to be aware that even a very slight reaction is noteworthy. Many will get an IND (indeterminate) on some bands, and that means that a response was there and should be taken into account.

While I do like TiredofLyme.com, I do not agree with the article they posted about the CD57. Here are some articles on the CD57 written by those that researched it and use it in their practice:
/www.researchednutritionals.com/library/lyme/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-cd57/

Some with a very low CD57 may have minimal symptoms, while someone with a very high CD57 may be completely bed ridden due to the severity of their symptoms. Some do find it helpful to track this number as they heal, but many do not, as there seems to be no rhyme or reason to why it raises and falls because no one knows what all goes into suppressing the CD57.
Posted 5/27/2017 6:03 PM (GMT 0)
Hi TempleLee & Traveler,
I copied the following from the tiredofLyme article, which confirms Traveler's point. No test is perfect. However, with a CD57 of 54 and severe symptoms, it looks like your Naturopath is right and you have Lyme. I hope we can all have the HNK1 test done and find our CD57 levels are over 200, one day soon.

• It is generally believed that the lower the amount of CD57 natural killer cells in the body, the more chronic or progressive Lyme disease is, and the higher the amount, the closer a person is to remission. There have been instances where high amounts of CD57 natural killers cells have been found in those with chronic Lyme disease, and low amounts of CD57 natural killer cells have been found in those who were believed to be in remission. While the CD57 test is not 100% accurate in terms of diagnosing chronic Lyme disease, it is an incredibly useful test in doing so when it is compared with other diagnostic Lyme tests such as a western blot test or the c3a and c3a complement protein test, as well as a person's symptoms.
• A CD57 natural killer cell level of about 200 is believed to be the area in which it is safe to discontinue use of a protocol without the risk of encountering a relapse. Even if your symptoms disappear, you should still continue with treatment until your CD57 reaches about 200 to avoid a relapse.
Posted 5/27/2017 7:34 PM (GMT 0)
On the subject of CD57 ... What is recommended to increase CD57 levels? Mine is at 30 and the only treatment I am on is Doxycycline 100mg bid. Thank you!
Posted 5/27/2017 7:40 PM (GMT 0)
Hi TempleLee -

I'm so sorry you're struggling with these symptoms but very glad you found us here. You've received good info and support already, just wanted to welcome you and chime in a bit.

Until you get to an LLMD, t help relieve some of the pain and annoyance, please talk w/ your ND about an anti-inflammatory herbs like turmeric. My Lyme-friendly neurologist likes to say that most of the Lyme neuropathy band pain is from inflammation. And also discuss some detoxing protocols to help move the toxins along. Diet is key although you probably already have that covered - no sugar, alcohol or simple carbs, reduce caffeine, whole foods and good nutrition, etc. We need our immune systems to help us out and 70% of immune function is in the gut!

I also want to suggest that while CD57 has been used by Lyme MDs and insurance companies are also now wanting confirming CD57 results to cover treatment, we are learning more and more that they are not as informative as once thought. If you need the test and you have results that support what you need, then they are a benefit. But that's about it. Too many people are reporting low or high results when they should be the opposite. I'm one of those people - started out at 37, 3 yrs later and almost done w/ successful tx and my number has only improved to 54.

Here is another link about CD57 if you're interested - Aylett you might be interested as well:
www.publichealthalert.org/role-of-c3a-and-c4a-complement-proteins-in-chronic-lyme-disease.html

I agree with the others that an IGeneX is the only test worth purchasing and it might be worth it in order to get tx covered - depends on your insurance. Some people have had success "provoking" a better immune response by taking antimicrobials like Olive Leaf Extract (this helped me produce a CDC positive IGeneX) or abx 4-5 wks prior to the test. Some people think it might trigger lesser response, you have to explore what will work for you.

The tests and the band criteria (5 and 2) were developed for disease surveillance purposes - not for diagnosis. The CDC tells MDs this but kinda not real obviously so if an MD isn't aware, they'll be clueless... if they even get around to administering the right test. So, it's also important to know how to interpret the bands correctly, which has already been discussed and something you can learn and we can help you with. It's important that your LLMD can interpret correctly this but you can also do it independently.

A good LLMD can help you figure out what your next steps need to be for diagnosis and treatment. Please continue asking questions - if you have any!

-p
Posted 5/29/2017 12:16 AM (GMT 0)

mareish said...
On the subject of CD57 ... What is recommended to increase CD57 levels? Mine is at 30 and the only treatment I am on is Doxycycline 100mg bid. Thank you!

Hi Mareish
yes 30 is quite low. I believe that we would agree that Lyme has 2 primary methods to survive. First, it secretes cytokines that stimulate an immune system reaction that inflames cells. As those cells are inflamed and then subsequently destroyed, Lyme disease feeds on the organic remnants of the process, especially collagen (Buhner, Healing Lyme). Second, Lyme disease misdirects and shuts down our immune system, again using false messages through the cytokines it secretes. There are two ways to redirect and ramp up our immune system to directly fight Lyme. The first is pharmaceutical antibiotics, such as the one you're taking, which kill Lyme disease bacteria and which cause other Lyme disease bacteria to encyst into a self protective state, called round body, such that the Lyme bacteria is not secreting cytokines. The second method is to use diet to defeat fatigue because an energized immune system is much more productive than a tired immune system. For this reason, Lyme disease knowledgeable practitioners recommend cutting back on foods that take a lot of energy to process like dairy, gluten, sugar, and meats. They also recommend ceasing use of drugs like caffeine and alcohol, basically for the same reason. The theory is that once the body has more energy because it doesn't have to spend so much energy processing these foods and chemicals, the energy will be dedicated to the immune system, which can then ramp up production of white blood corpuscles like CD57. Lyme disease knowledgeable practitioners also generally seem to recommend supplements to make up for vitamin and mineral deficiencies that slow the immune system. The combined effect of the body having more energy and the proper nutrients and the cytokine production of the Lyme disease being decreased by the antibiotic should theoretically cause the immune system to act normally, such that it is producing CD57 and bands of antibodies directed to kill Lyme disease bacteria. (Before going into a massive supplementation, I suggest that you talk with your MD regarding your symptoms, because those symptoms indicate where you need supplementation.)
Hope this helps. Cheers to the healing that is to come for all of us! Hugs, Aylett
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