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Buhner view of biofilms

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Posted 5/26/2017 11:46 PM (GMT 0)
This is from www.buhnerhealinglyme.com - Steven Buhner's view on biofilms:

"I am not a big fan of the biofilm hysteria that is common among the lyme community right now. ALL bacteria form biofilms. It is just a grouping of bacteria together in one location and the formation of a kind of rigid structure, similar to coral formation in the oceans, that they use to protect themselves. This is just ONE of a great many mechanisms bacteria use to protect themselves from immune responses or antibacterial substances and so on. It is no more dangerous or important than the bacterial ability to use efflux pumps to remove antibacterial substances from their cells or to use the immune system itself to hide from assault. Most herbal medicines are effective against biofilm formations just as are most immune systems. A biofilm may slow down effectiveness of immune response or herbal antibacterials but it does not stop them. It is not the terminator of bacterial protection. Biofilms have been around for eons and plants and immune systems have developed mechanisms for dealing with them. I would not worry about them as of being of particular importance in becoming healthy."
Posted 5/27/2017 1:56 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks for posting this Klagh - good to read.

I think what Buhner says sounds very logical. But I'm one of those people who crashed HARD when I started a biofilm buster - nast bronchitis, sinusitis, viral surge, yeast/fungal flare, and nearly all my Lyme & co sx returned. I stopped the anti-biofilm, recovered. 3 wks later I started it again, another less intense crash, went off it, recovered. 3 wks later tried again - each time I would crash but with less intensity until finally 3 mos later I was able to work up to optimal anti-biofilm dose.

So, my biofilm must be special and have magical powers to harbor all sortsa gifts for me. Or, I'm thinking there is something to all the hype. ;)

-p
Posted 5/27/2017 2:31 AM (GMT 0)
Hi guys.

P... what was your buster?

Thanx for sharing both of you!!
Posted 5/27/2017 4:16 AM (GMT 0)
Beyond Balance BFM-1
good stuff!

-p
Posted 5/27/2017 4:26 AM (GMT 0)

Lightlife said...
Hi guys.

P... what was your buster?

Thanx for sharing both of you!!

I'm not P, but I'll share, too...

biofilms - Serrapeptase for awhile; now Xylitol and Lactoferrin

cysts - GSE for awhile, then Tinidazole
Posted 5/27/2017 4:27 AM (GMT 0)
I've taken larger doses of Grapefruit Seed extract, Raw Garlic, and Coconut Oil. That can break things up and cause a nice Herx for starters. Bactrim, Metronidazole and Minocycline, Doxycycline I'm still experimenting with. And I'm starting to believe more in Probiotics and controlled diet. But seeing the cysts form under a microscope shows that this bug is pleomorphic, biofilmic and mostly not planktonic (see Costerton the Father of Biofilms). It's weird that plaque builds up on teeth and you can floss it, but not sure if you can do this to your blood stream or body/system.
Posted 5/27/2017 4:08 PM (GMT 0)
Rawls recommends NAC for biofilms and strengthening the immune system.

/rawlsmd.com/health-articles/understanding-biofilm
Posted 5/27/2017 4:31 PM (GMT 0)
I agree with Buhner on many things, but not on this. I too have tried using a biofilm buster and had all manner of havoc break out with my symptoms! Seems to me that at least some of us need to use one, but I don't know that everyone needs one. This may be tied to how long we have had these infections, or may have nothing at all to do with that aspect.

I used cistus tea as a biofilm buster, FWIW.
Posted 5/27/2017 6:54 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks Traveler! I always respect your opinion. I just ordered some cistus tea.
Posted 5/27/2017 6:57 PM (GMT 0)
My tea expires this month so I need to use it up!
I had planned to add the tea but waited until I got up to optimal doses of the BFM-1 so I've been ready for a few wks now. I am also on CSE. And I also remembered that I also get anti-biofilm benefit from the heparin that I'm on, was a little worried about adding in too much but I think I'm gonna go for the tea, too.
Will try to ratchet up and stay there until I go off all abx in a couple months...

-p
Posted 5/27/2017 7:05 PM (GMT 0)
PeteZa,
On that link you posted, there's an article linking to the fact that the medical community (at least some) is officially recognizing that chronic lyme exits!!

Thanks!
Posted 5/27/2017 8:14 PM (GMT 0)
In term's of being chronically ill, I think more of case could be made out of bacterial persisters than bio-films. There is a lot of research to back up what Buhner saying, but if you do a search on bacterial persisters, scientist are still not sure what the implications are in terms of infection/immune response. The Zhang study that demonstrated the exsistence of borellia persisters is likely to be the study that is gaining some medical credence for chronic infection in Lyme disease.

I don't mean for my message to come off as snarky or invalidating to those that have had some success with treating biofilms. A lot of it is in frustration because there is always some new idea or doctor who thinks they found the missing link and we are all adding yet one more drug or herbal to our protocol yet not really getting better or to 100% of normal health.
Posted 5/27/2017 8:55 PM (GMT 0)
bmoberg337,
I think the key may be in an article someone linked to yesterday - article by Dr. Jernigan, in which he says the focus should be bringing the body back to homeostasis (paraphrasing).

That even if we could irradiate every offending microbe and virus out of ourselves like a hunk of meat, it still wouldn't work. Essentially we must get our bodies healthy enough to live in harmony with the microbes and viruses. Which is why we must modify diet, reduce stress, reduce chemical levels, etc.

I think all the supplements and herbals and all the things we take are supposed to help bring the body achieve homeostasis. With the ultimate end goal that our bodies are strong enough to coexist with these things and still function reasonably.

At 62, I don't expect to ever get back to 100% of "normal" health. I don't even think I EVER had 100% "normal" health. My goal is to live independently and be able to take care of myself till I die. For a 32-year-old, 100% would be something totally different.
Posted 5/27/2017 9:26 PM (GMT 0)
Addendum,
Maybe what we are all trying to achieve is not 100% of normal health, that may never be achievable, but at least a better quality than what we currently have. An increase from 55% to 85%? Or 90%? Different for each person.
Posted 5/28/2017 3:16 AM (GMT 0)
Klagh, I am living proof that you can be 100% normal after lyme.

Caveat: I was treated quickly after my bite, I already had a great immune system, I already ate super organic, I did not do much sugar, I detoxed before knowing what detoxing was, and I was exacting in my protocol for treatment (meaning I did not skip a day or an hour of treatment).

I absolutely believe that if I had not gone out drinking with girlfriends and gotten snockered, my lyme would have stayed in control. Getting snockered lowered my immune system significantly and lyme won.
Posted 5/28/2017 3:44 AM (GMT 0)
Klagh, I read Buhner wrote somewhere that he believes exactly what you said--that we need to learn to co-exist with the bacteria. That was a horrific thought to me & still is. I'm not sure I can resolve myself to co-existence at this point. I just started my lyme battle & am hopeful of fully overcoming. But I don't know what is realistic.

PeteZa, are you saying one time of slipping up caused you to succumb to lyme? Wow!
Posted 5/28/2017 4:29 AM (GMT 0)
Yes, this argument doesn't really add up. Just because they are natural and have been around since the beginning of time, doesn't mean that they're not acting as a shield to hide spirochetes from the antibiotics. They've probably been around since the beginning of time because they are doing exactly that, creating a natural protection for bacteria. The same way human beings live in a house to protect themselves from the weather, bacteria live in a biofilm to protect them from natural predators in their environment.
Posted 5/28/2017 6:02 PM (GMT 0)

Klagh said...
Addendum,
Maybe what we are all trying to achieve is not 100% of normal health, that may never be achievable, but at least a better quality than what we currently have. An increase from 55% to 85%? Or 90%? Different for each person.

This is a very realistic view, Klagh. Not everyone makes it back to 100%. It all depends on the damage done and the ability to bring things back to "normal", not only with the immune system, but many things. That's why there is no one treatment/answer for everyone.
Posted 5/28/2017 6:15 PM (GMT 0)

HzKabod said...
Klagh, I read Buhner wrote somewhere that he believes exactly what you said--that we need to learn to co-exist with the bacteria. That was a horrific thought to me & still is. I'm not sure I can resolve myself to co-existence at this point. I just started my lyme battle & am hopeful of fully overcoming. But I don't know what is realistic.

PeteZa, are you saying one time of slipping up caused you to succumb to lyme? Wow!

I totally believe that lyme was being held at bay by my immune system for a couple of months and then I messed up my immune system drinking too much alcohol. Shame on me and I should know better.

I think the same thing has happened with a lot of people. An illness, stress, lack of sleep, overindulgence, or anything that can alter a healthy immune system can let anything that is in your thrive.

Shingles is a great example. Shingles is a reactivation of a virus that is usually cause by an illness, stress, medication, injury or other things. It lives in us and something causes it to activate - a weakened immune system. I know it is a virus and Bb is a bacteria. Just using it as an example of how our body can do fine and keep things at bay but weakened and "stuff" can come out to play.
Posted 5/28/2017 6:41 PM (GMT 0)

bmoberg337 said...
In term's of being chronically ill, I think more of case could be made out of bacterial persisters than bio-films. There is a lot of research to back up what Buhner saying, but if you do a search on bacterial persisters, scientist are still not sure what the implications are in terms of infection/immune response. The Zhang study that demonstrated the exsistence of borellia persisters is likely to be the study that is gaining some medical credence for chronic infection in Lyme disease.

I don't mean for my message to come off as snarky or invalidating to those that have had some success with treating biofilms. A lot of it is in frustration because there is always some new idea or doctor who thinks they found the missing link and we are all adding yet one more drug or herbal to our protocol yet not really getting better or to 100% of normal health.

Miklossy and MacDonald have both shown borrelial biofilms, among others, in the brains of alzheimers patients. Persister cells are often seeded inside biofilms so the relevance is there. Bacteria, and especially obligate parasites, are extremely genetically conservative. They will discard functions over time that are not used for their survival to save on metabolic expenses associated with maintaining those genes. The fact that borrelia has persister and biofilm function is a good indication that it uses them in real life scenarios. And anyways, unless you're referring to a study i haven't seen, Zhangs is in vitro which gets very little credence from the conservative crowd. Miklossy probably has done some of the better work showing bacterial pleomorphism occurring naturally in clinical specimens and not just as a laboratory curiosity. If i remember correctly both her and hodzic have demonstrated the ability of these morphologies to elicit a cytokine response as well as opposed to being inert remnants
Posted 5/28/2017 7:05 PM (GMT 0)
Buhner has great faith in the ability of the human immune system and it's ability to fight invading pathogens. The drawback is that same ability is seriously degraded by the assault by those pathogens. With one or two, even three of the invaders, perhaps the body can mount a successful defense. But when it has been weakened by insufficient therapy, the immune system compromised by five, six or seven of the critters, and the entire body debilitated by fatigue, depression and digestive disruption, the immune system cannot mount the necessary reply. That's when taking it to the biofilms makes sense to me. By not leaving them a protected retreat to live in we can actively fight back and perhaps restore some "normality" to our lives. Not everyone has lived a pristine organic, athletic life. My activity level was reduced by two damaged knees. It's hard to be active when every movement brings pain. Once the disruption starts the downward spiral begins. The climb back up that ramp is tough. Physical fitness is critical to healing. Getting fit is a bear when you have no energy, no motivation, disrupted thoughts and chronic pain. This forum has provided much in the way of information, motivation and truth.

The truth will set you free.
Of course, first it will piss you off.
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