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Posted 5/29/2017 11:22 PM (GMT 0)
I've been asking a lot of questions as of late. My apologies.

But I'm in a new world with herbs and confused on what it takes with them. As mentioned, I am following Dr. Rawls Vital Plan. Started in at a low dose May 14 and still can only work up to half the recommended doses.

Don't expect to be doing great yet, but didn't think I would start feeling this bad - more depression, anxiety, headaches at night, and now stomach pain/ legs getting fatigued. Have never tried herbs until now. Is this the usual pattern? I read A LOT and follow a lot of threads all you "veterans" post on. I respect your thoughts and do not mean to take advantage of your time.

At this moment I do not have an LLMD as mine would forget what we talked about and was rushed. I'm sure that's how it works with so few LLMDs. Just feel I'm going at something without knowing what to expect or when to expect it. Also know there are no true answers to any plan until we try.

Have changed diet over the last 5 weeks and eat as I am supposed to. So the pain in the stomach throws me, along with leg weariness. I would appreciate any thoughts. I try to keep this from my kids, but the frustration of holding it in makes it tougher.

Had two good years and now feel frustrated again.
Posted 5/29/2017 11:52 PM (GMT 0)
Hi runningwild -

I'm so sorry you're struggling. And don't apologize for asking questions - that's the whole point of the forum and you can be sure other people have the same questions and benefit from the conversation.

Regardless if we're taking abx or herbs, there is similar herxing involved and healing takes time. And the sx can come and go in cycles, or be more concentrated after you start a particular part of your protocol, or get worse when doses go higher. Generally, it should improve over time but that time frame is a huge variable among us.

Your depression, anxiety are neurotransmitter symptoms and can be from several different things going on. I like to target these with detoxing in two specific ways, which should also help with the headaches:

- detox the gut (remember the gut-brain connection) and include a binder in the daily detox process;
- and detox the brain with Nutrimedix Pinella and Bur bur tinctures.

For the headaches you might also try to reduce inflammation - my neurologist likes to say that neuropathy is often due to inflammation. I like turmeric and japanese knotweed. With any new herb start with very low doses and titrate up to optimal doses slowly.

The fatigue is your body telling you a) it's sick and your immune system is overloaded and b) your treatment is also overloading your immune and other body systems like your adrenals and endocrine systems and c) life is overwhelming... so it's a sign that you do need to slow down a bit. It's also inevitable - the infections and treatment are really hard on our bodies and it's hard to take a break from life to deal with these infections but the fatigue forces us to slow down. Fighting it will only make it worse - the fatigue ALWAYS wins this battle.

Also, you might reconsider hiding your illness from your kids - maybe you could let them know you have bugs in your body that you are trying to get out... they don't belong there. And that sometimes, you feel extra tired and need extra hugs that day. Although maybe your kids are older - but they're generally pretty smart and will be tough to hide all of the intricacies of treatment. Also, you DO need extra hugs!

Hope this is helpful - if not just keep asking questions...

-p
Posted 5/30/2017 12:07 AM (GMT 0)
Hey runningwild,
No apologies necessary, questions are a good thing and help all of us here.

It sounds like you are herxing , are you doing any detoxing?

Also every person is unique. Not everyone takes or needs full doses of herbals so don't let that discourage you. As time goes on and you listen to your body/symptons/reactions you will figure how much is right for you.

One can also be sensitive to a herbal so watch for that to and adjust your treatment accordingly.

Getting better can be a lot of ups and downs and does take time. Its important to treat, but if you are herxing/or bad reaction it's ok to back off on the amounts or take a break until the increase in symptoms dies down.

I know how you feel about keeping this all from your children, I have done that with my son, but you are right, holding all these frustrations and emotions back is not beneficial to our healing.

Maybe you could just explain how you feel and need their understanding and a big hug right now.
Depending on their age, you could talk to them about how the illness makes you feel and that sometimes you might not be well and need their help.

I wish you the best of healing and better days ahead. Take care, Jo
Posted 5/30/2017 12:41 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks for both of your responses. Your assessments are appreciated and, as much as anything, allow my mind not to overthink and know there are answers.

I like the Vital Plan because of its simplicity, but because the herbs are combined, it makes it tough to figure out which are working and which might be causing some issues. Detoxing with dry skin brushing and lemon water.

Have activated charcoal and used it twice. Both times I ended up with heavy headaches, though that might be a coincidence because I get a lot of those, usually at 2-3 in the morning. For some reason, those headaches went away for two months when I was taking azithromycin. There has to be a reason for that. It was awesome.

The herbs in the Vital Plan are supposed to be addressing gut health. That is what concerns me. And I have lost so much weight (from 174 down to 160 or less). Lost that much the first time I went through all this and finally got better, primarily using Bicillin (2.4mu) twice a week, collodial silver and protease enzymes. Herbs only are something foreign to me.

My kids are all now graduated from high school, and I will be coaching two of them in college this year. Have looked forward to that for years, and now this hit again about 5 weeks ago, though I could feel it coming on. They have known me as sick for much of their lives, and the past two years they got to see the "good" me. Don't want them to have to go back.

By backing off treatment for a few days, will it allow the Lyme and co-infections to grow? That is why I have tried to push the treatment so fast. Or can that time be spent building immune system and gut without allowing Lyme to get worse?

I've said it so many times, but this forum and the people on it are so amazing.
Posted 5/30/2017 12:43 AM (GMT 0)
Forgot - does this sound more like a herx, as Pirouette mentioned? That's what throws me as the first time I was treted and, eventually, got better for two years, I rarely herxed.
Posted 5/30/2017 1:28 AM (GMT 0)
Backing off of treatment for few days should be fine.
Lyme in particular has a long replication time - something like 3 weeks.

Bart and Babs - are shorter...as in days.


You may not know this yet, but some LLMD's (including a well-known, very experienced one) has patients on pulsed protocols. So they take 'drug holiday's every couple of weeks...that can be a week or even two weeks long.
Posted 5/30/2017 1:33 AM (GMT 0)
Hi running wild,

For me I believe slowing backing off for a few doses until my herx symptoms lessened was ok. I still have been making some progress.

The body has to be able to keep up and handle the toxic die off. If you are herxing too bad or too much your body needs a rest. I have seen it posted here that severe herxing may be dangerous.

about not herxing before, I'm not sure but it could just be different this time or its possible a certain herb is not settling with you well.

I was unable to take cats claw-tomensota , it made me herx badly, and now I still only take a low dose ,only 8 drops a a day.
I know its hard for you to isolate if a certain herb is causing issues since they are all blended by Dr Rawls.

I wish I could help more , hopefully others will come along soon.

You could search for posts about it and get more information/insight and you could also repost and specifically ask traveler a question.

Well take care and enjoy coaching your children at college. That is so awesome. Sincerely, Jo
Posted 5/30/2017 3:55 AM (GMT 0)
Ur body is going to get hammered the first few months using herbs. However there are going to many times where symptoms are gunna suck and no amount of detoxing will help so just be ready to deal with it. But eventually u will start noticing things are not happening anymore. But new things will pop up as u treat. The gut issues will happen at first cuz these lil ****** bug are there also. Just stick with the good diet. Also start your prote and stick with whatever it is till u feel things are tolerable then look at going up or adding to it. Healing is a brutally slow marathon for most of us with set backs and triumphs. You will also see things get better and crappy at the same time.
Posted 5/30/2017 3:30 PM (GMT 0)
If I read this correctly you have only been treating since May 14th, 2017 and that is only a couple of weeks. This is a slow process to get this lyme under control.

It will take some time and lots of patience.

I do not recommend pulsing herbs. I think backing off and getting leveled out is a great idea and then slowly moving back up again.

Remember that all dosages are recommendations. Some can do more then recommended and some can't even do the recommended. It is just a guideline and not written in stone that you Have To Take that much.

I was the one that needed to write the word Patience on my walls. I was so darn impatient. I had to learn that this impatience contributes to stress and stress magnifies symptoms.

Hope this is helpful.
Posted 5/30/2017 3:38 PM (GMT 0)
I agree that detoxing more will be a must for you - that's why you are having difficulties now most likely. Many of us don't really do all the detoxing we really need to do for our bodies - it's a lot of work! But, we must do enough to control the herxing.

It's actually fairly common for those doing pharma abx to herx when they switch over to herbs. It may be the extra immune support that herbs give that abx don't, but I'm not at all sure on that.

I would encourage you to increase your detoxing (as others have suggested) and to lower your doses for just a few days so your body can play 'catch up' with the toxins that have been created.

And, please do keep asking questions!!! If you don't know, you need to understand as much as you can. It's really that simple.
Posted 5/30/2017 3:39 PM (GMT 0)
Herxing is normal. I've been following buhners protocol for over a year and had to stop and restart many times because i could not handle even his lowest recommended doses. One thing to remember is that a lot of doses are born out of traditional medicine practices where these plants were used for things other than Lyme. Those patients tend to not be so sensitive as we can be. I'm FINALLY after all this time on a dose that works for me and have been there about two months, slowly working up. I was taking microdoses of knotweed alone and nothing else. Like startingvwith 1/4 tsp powder and working up 1/8 at a time. Even then i had some nasty herxes but i was able to rapidly recover and increase my dose and repeat. Just in the past few days i reached 1tsp 3x a day which is Buhners minimum dose and i'm feeling pretty good. I mean, not tremendous. I have a long way to go. But i'm pretty stable, no more random new symptoms. Each dose increase is bringing less and less herx and they are shorter and shorter each time. Because many of the symptoms of Lyme are hypersensitivity reactions however, i'll probably still have to take very large doses to get at the remaining few spirochetes that are causing the symptoms that are left. And add in other herbs of course. I fully expect that and most stories that i've read take a few months to feel better, up to a year to feel almost 100%.
Posted 5/30/2017 3:46 PM (GMT 0)
Hey Psilo - the JK has hit me hard too!! I'm only doing micro doses as well, but slowly making progress. I managed to get on full doses of sida actua fairly easily though - next big one for me is Houttuynia.
Posted 5/30/2017 3:55 PM (GMT 0)
And then there is lil ole me. I was doing Japanese Knotweed, 2 droppers full, 3 times a day.... felt absolutely nothing and stopped there.

But 1/4 of a drop of Sida Acuta made me so sick. I put it away, saying I would get back to it, but never had to. Same thing happened with Electrococcus.

We are all so different and react differently to each herb. This is why we go low and slow.
Posted 5/30/2017 4:08 PM (GMT 0)

PeteZa said...
And then there is lil ole me. I was doing Japanese Knotweed, 2 droppers full, 3 times a day.... felt absolutely nothing and stopped there.

But 1/4 of a drop of Sida Acuta made me so sick. I put it away, saying I would get back to it, but never had to. Same thing happened with Electrococcus.

We are all so different and react differently to each herb. This is why we go low and slow.

I've gotten some bad batches of JK. I mean, you might just be insensitive, i just feel the need to mention because i wonder how many people simply don't get better from bad herb batches as opposed to the herb itself not working.

Traveler - Sida ripped me a new b-hole. I took one dropper of that three times a day and then felt all the insulation peeling off my nerves all over my body. It was horrific. But the good thing is now i know it penetrate the nervous system! After i get on a higher dose of knotweed i'm going to add cats claw and then go for Sida again since i have a huge bottle of it. I want to try houttuynia too but one thing that bothers me is the aristolochic acid. Traditional preparation is as a decoction and aristolochic acid isn't water soluble. But most people these days are using tinctures and i wonder if that might be toxic long term. I hear they work better than the decoction so i'm hesitant about how i should approach this one
Posted 5/30/2017 5:42 PM (GMT 0)
I used a decoction of Houttuynia, using the dried leaf, as I couldn't find it fresh at the time. That's also how I intend to use it this time (don't fix what ain't broken kind of thing!)as it worked well for me last time.

Hmmm, I started Avena sativa and Lion's mane before I started the Sida, I wonder if that is what helped me, as there is no doubt my nervous is involved.

The other thing is that I'm not using tinctures of any of my treatment herbs - the only tinctures I'm using are for support (and I make 2 of them myself)- dandelion tincture, red root tincture (will soon be switching over to dried herb powder), Red Sage root, and Avena sativa (which also supports the healing of the nervous system).

Oh!! Speaking of which - my dandelion tincture is ready today!! Woohoooooo!!!! turn
Posted 5/30/2017 7:39 PM (GMT 0)
Ah so you found the decoction of houttuynia to be strong? That's good as someone else told me the tincture was the only one that worked. But i'm sure the problem lay in their preparation. Really good to hear as houttuynia sounds like a bada** herb with a huge spectrum of activity. I did use a sida acuta tincture so that's probably why it was so strong. That's the one that convinced me herbs > abx. I've herxed a bit on knotweed but nothing like that. It was hitting my Lyme with laser precision. Made me wonder why it's not a primary Lyme herb or why the whole world is not using it to treat deep infections lol.
Posted 5/30/2017 9:12 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks for all the information to all of you. What you bring up is what I am concerned about, a bit. I cannot discern between what might be causing problems and what isn't because of the pre-mix of herbs.

Finally, at this is just happening, I took an activated charcoal about two hours ago and feel like I am about to jump out of my skin with anxiety, trembling. Could that be form the activated charcoal? I have read it does not cause symptoms but rather helps. Thanks.
Posted 5/30/2017 9:51 PM (GMT 0)
Hi runningwild,
I'm new to this, too, so I don't have the wisdom to offer you advice yet, but I'm interested in something you wrote and hoping you could elaborate. You mentioned that you have weight loss... I do too and there's nothing I can do to gain. Would you mind sharing your experience with this? Did you lose weight when first infected? Were you able to gain with treatment? Antibiotics? Did you then lose again? Thanks for reading. Big hugs smile
Posted 5/30/2017 10:44 PM (GMT 0)
bekind - weight loss has been very frustrating. It started before I was ever diagnosed (took 11 or more years). But it wasn't as bad because I ate whatever I wanted because I did not know what was wrong with me.

I have also had thinning of skin, which comes with a certain form of Lyme Disease. For a guy, had great skin before all this. First time around, went on the diet and went from 174 down to below 160. That has happened again. It is a catch 22 because you have to cut out so many things to be healthy, but the loss of weight makes you feel even more unhealthy.

Good news is I gained most of the weight back when I got better more than two years ago, but I was eating too much bad stuff for Lyme. So, WHEN I get this back under control, and I will, I will be much more careful with what I eat, but not a restrictive as I am now.

Hang in there, and know there are others in the same boat with you> if I can get better once, you can too. It's just a tough road there, but giving up on it is not an option.
Posted 5/30/2017 11:04 PM (GMT 0)
Runningwild,
I searched for some information about if act. charcoal , if it can cause some people to herx/feel worse, but I haven't come up with anything yet.

I use it and haven't had that issue.

Are you familiar with the website TiredofLyme? There is some information on herxing and why sometimes detoxing too much can make you feel worse. Not sure if that s what is causing your worsening of symptoms but worth a look to see if any of the information is helpful to you.

.http://www.tiredoflyme.com/4-reasons-why-you-still-feel-bad-despite-detoxing.html

Take care, Jo
Posted 5/30/2017 11:40 PM (GMT 0)
Hey goshawk - I tried to find something too, but all I saw were good things about activated charcoal. Not sure what brought it on as I was feeling decent at work, then it hit.

Lasted until I got home and took a low dose of clonopin, which I have been taking for years because of ringing in my ears. I am on less than 1mg a day, and it has been that way for all those years. Fortunately, I do not have an addictive personality, so I do not feel the need to go up. But I can tell you it makes a huge difference in anxiety when it is time to take it.

I appreciate you taking the time to look. I'll take another dose tomorrow and see what happens. I'll also look at Tired of Lyme. Have been to that site before.
Posted 5/31/2017 11:09 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks, runningwild. Ironically enough, I read your next post and see that you have ringing in the ears. That's another one of my symptoms that has been bothersome. You say "it makes a huge difference in anxiety when it is time to take it.". Are you referring to the clonopin? Do you take that for the ringing or anxiety? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to learn as much as I can. Thanks for reading smile
Posted 5/31/2017 4:43 PM (GMT 0)
Def just need to find the right pacing that you can manage. It's hard not to get impatient. Sadly I'm not sure anyone can give concrete timelines, a lot of this depends on length and severity of illness, mix of infections, underlying fundamentals of body plus various other factors. I had some insane reactions back in the day to herbal therapies, the further along I've gotten the less intense it has gotten.

I would say, if you can, try and taper treatment dosing to something that isn't too crushing. It can be hard to find the "sweet spot." Are you taking multiple kinds of antimicrobial herbs at once? if so could taper back, introduce one at a time, build up on each one slowly, this would also allow you to gauge which herb might be causing issues or flares...

I think it's great that you are making changes for the diet, that is a huge one imo.
Posted 5/31/2017 4:46 PM (GMT 0)
btw Traveler, or anyone else using the houttuynia decoction, which company do you order the decoction from? any recommendations?
Posted 5/31/2017 5:27 PM (GMT 0)

sebreg said...
btw Traveler, or anyone else using the houttuynia decoction, which company do you order the decoction from? any recommendations?

I ordered bulk "cut/sifted" Houyttunia from 1st Chinese Herbs I believe, and made my own decoction at home. I will be starting this again soon too (smhair)
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