Antibiotics: Why or Why Not? PART 2

Kat1000 said...
I also believe it is important to stay positive, and that emotions and thoughts do play a part. Some believe that these toxins, bacteria, parasites are always in our body, and it's when our immune system is weakened that we falter and they take over. I had some really stressful years, and then I had two vaccines in the same arm at the same time, and that's when I believe the lyme took hold. So I'm trying to focus on gratitude and happiness. Some days are harder than others.

That's a lot of good stuff, Kat1000.

What I'm about to write may cause me to be tarred and feathered. But, since it's just my opinion, I hope it will be viewed in that light.

I suspect I remain stuck in "analysis paralysis," due to there being no iron-clad, 100% guaranteed answer to any given issue.

You know how it is: For every 10 "experts" saying "X," there are another 10 "experts" claiming "Y." Both groups cannot be correct. Of course, these days, anyone with a blog or podcast can claim to be an "expert."

As humans, we often oversimplify and conflate things. We confuse correlation and causation. We engage in selection bias. While I'm not generally one for quotes and sayings, Richard Feynman said something that I agree with completely:

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool."

So, when I read that a person took a herb or antibiotic and "herxed," what does that tell us? Is that supposed to mean it was a "healing reaction" -- meaning that, while unpleasant, it's ultimately in our best interest? Or, might that really mean that our body is telling us that substance is not compatible and to stop ingesting it? Of course, the dose makes the poison. A person can die from drinking too much water.

Another notion that I have trouble with is "detoxing." Some people will advise us to "detox more" -- as if we have some conscious decision to make in the matter. Our bodies are continually removing toxins from our bodies. Can we support or enhance that process? Sure. We can eat more fruits and vegetables, drink a sufficient amount of clean water, get as much rest as our bodies need, and so forth. But, doing a "5-Day Liver Detox" -- or, worse, a gallbladder flush by drinking olive oil and other stuff -- just doesn't seem like the correct approach.

Again, these are my opinions. I'll be the first to admit that I may very well be out of my mind!

Since I'm already careening over a cliff, I may as well hit the gas a little more and mention that the result of my doing little-to-nothing doesn't feel much different that when I had taken antibiotics and/or herbs. I felt terrible using them and still feel terrible without them.

Naturally, that's a problematic comment, because maybe I didn't take the correct ones, take enough of them, and/or take them long enough. Or, maybe I took the right ones -- but, too much and for too long. The possibilities are endless. However, given all the stories I've read on this forum and elsewhere, I'm pretty sure others have tested a sufficient number of combinations and dosages. The posts on this forum go back almost NINE YEARS and the same questions, answers, and problems are listed again and again.

Perhaps I see no point in trying to reinvent the wheel.

That said, I also read stories about people who report being healed. Obviously, it's those personal anecdotes that encourage the rest of us to forge ahead. Hope is a powerful motivator. Without it, what's the point?

For anyone that might have made it this far, I apologize for my Debbie Downer mood. I'm feeling especially bad/down today, so I hope you will consider my comments in that context. Whether I feel good or bad, I never want to upset or discourage others. I'm a caring person, but just struggling.

The Dude

LongJourney said...
Dude,

being sick is a money pit. It seems to me that you have a lot going on, especially with the C. Diff., so I think you need to use extra caution. Taking medicine or herbs for one thing can exacerbate something else, and make things worse overall.

I have a lot of respect for everyone in this forum, and folks have helped me a lot, including emotionally. But, if I were in your shoes, I would seek an ID doctor.

In any case, don't give up. Keep asking questions and researching, at some point you will feel like you have enough information to have an intelligent conversation with your doctor or chiropractor, and take control of you healing process.

Focus at the light at the end of the tunnel

All the best

If the ID Dr isn't Lyme Literate - how would that be helpful?

There is one LL ID Dr that I know of - Dr. J

Dude, I am healed and how that happened, well I kept guessing and found the right combo for me. I'm really am a bear of very little brain.

I read books and still screwed some of the stuff up. I did the protocol my way and was told I was wrong but those that told me that, finally gave up. Probably because I was healed and they weren't??? who knows.

I did one thing for myself, and now for my husband, that I retained during brain fog of reading lyme books - I treated the most horrible symptom first. For me, it was head pain. For hubby, it was tinnitus.

I can only guess, but yours might be your gut. And if I had a gut symptom I would stop everything and heal the gut before I moved on.

I can't recommend bone broth enough. You can even get Pacific brand organic turkey bone broth on Amazon. I think Walmart has it too. Then, just like you do babies with tender tummies, you gentle add in mild healing food into your diet - all the while doing the bone broth.

It is all a guessing game - for us and for the doctors. They try meds and then they try others. We all search for the combo that works individually for us. And it is frustrating to take one step forward and two steps back, or moon walk in place.

It tries your patience, gets tiring trying to get rid of a disease and it becomes a full time job. It also CONSUMES your life. You eat, drink, sleep, ache and hurt constantly and you can't quit reading or looking for answers.

It is the life of a person with lyme.

But, hang in there and be one that heals. One that all of a sudden we, here on this forum, never hear from again and we wonder...... That is why I am still here. So many just split. I don't blame them. Life is for living, not sitting at a computer. I just want someone to know that you can heal. Here I am! An old fart lady that got bit and healed! So you can do it too. Won't happen fast, won't be easy, but doable.

Good post, Kat. Lyme & Co tx is really more about whole body health, and for many people it's tough to get there. For chronic people, it's absolutely critical and the main reason most people don't recover, imo.

Dude -
No worries - we all have down days full of doubt - we're not robots. They often help us work through something that has us stymied or not progressing so I think the discussion is always helpful.

The main reason you see the same conversation cycling over and over again on the forum is that at this point in history, there is no proven one-size-fits-all treatment, primarily because of the main controversies over the Lyme science. That's a whole other discussion that is an interesting one.

But another reason there is so much repetitive discussion about what works on this forum is because we have new members cycling in--and others cycling out (most who are healed do leave to get back to life - they have a lot of time to make up for) every single day. People coming to the forum are seeking info and others share, often through personal experience. A lot of learning curve involved since the medical industry has left us to figure this out on our own.

Also, keep in mind that nearly 100% of people who join this forum are not helped with conventional treatment - we're looking for alternatives -sometimes customized- that require a lot of troubleshooting. This entire community is here because of the gray area we're in. Lyme isn't all gray but this forum is mostly - not because we're chasing rainbows, but because it's d-a-m-n complicated to customize a complicated tx protocol for a complicated infection(s) in a sea of complicated health environment we all bring to the table.

These are just a few reasons why there is a lot of what may appear to be conflicting information in the threads on this forum.

I certainly don't question your own experience - if you felt no befit from detoxing support or herxing support. Not everyone does. But it's a fact that both of these phenomenons exist so that's where your reasoning is a bit off. There is plenty of good info out there (and a ton of anecdotal info) about the benefits of detoxing. You're right - our bodies are designed to do our own detoxing but there are multiple DNA mutations and other health issues that prevent us from doing this naturally well on a healthy day. And many of us, who have discovered these, have found fairly simple support mechanisms to improve this.

After three years of studying my own body's response to infections and tx (and learning from others' experiences), I can tell you definitively that there are links to detoxing and herxing.

There is also plenty of good info out there about what herxing is and isn't. This isn't all in our heads ;) But you're right that there are different reasons for "reactions" to meds or herbs. When you have the same reaction to a med or herb, you're likely experiencing what is known as a herx --either an exaggerated symptom or maybe a new sx but related to the common Lyme & Co infections.

It can be very difficult to discern what is an allergic or sensitivity reaction or a new sx. So many people, often directed by an MD, to stop "whatever" immediately when a reaction is intense (and let's face it, sometimes it's a CYA). It's usually not a bad thing to do, as anything that causes your body continued stress is probably not going to be helpful in the long-run.

And it's a very personal, case-by-case decision to be made. But I've had several experiences where an intense reaction is simply die off. Thankfully, I've listened to my intuition and persevered through intense reactions - thanks to info I've learned.

Just because we don't understand the complexities of phenomena like this doesn't mean they doesn't exist...

As a more general statement in response to the thread topic, when I have more time I'll share my own experiences with abx and herbs. Like others, it's varied and nuanced and has shaped my own beliefs and recommendations I share with others. You can't write fiction this strange and colorful.

-p

Post Edited (Pirouette) : 6/1/2017 1:08:16 PM (GMT-6)

Pirouette said...
[A whoooole lot of good stuff...]

Pirouette:

As bluelyme wrote on a different thread "you're amazing!"

Thank you for taking so much of your valuable time to share your thoughts. Today, it was a lot of my frustration talking. I appreciate your being so generous and understanding.

I feel like I'm "darned if I do and darned if I don't." (Funny, my original wording was automatically changed!) I feel terrible, and, as many people have noted, it sure seems I have a lot of things going on (based on the many lab results I posted) and some of them probably need a little attention. But, it's my lack of certainty in how to proceed that keeps me stuck.

Well, no sense in beating this topic to death any further. I just wanted to thank you for your many contributions.

Sincerely,
The Dude

PeteZa said...
Dude, I am healed and how that happened, well I kept guessing and found the right combo for me. I'm really am a bear of very little brain.

I read books and still screwed some of the stuff up. I did the protocol my way and was told I was wrong but those that told me that, finally gave up. Probably because I was healed and they weren't??? who knows.

I did one thing for myself, and now for my husband, that I retained during brain fog of reading lyme books - I treated the most horrible symptom first. For me, it was head pain. For hubby, it was tinnitus.

I can only guess, but yours might be your gut. And if I had a gut symptom I would stop everything and heal the gut before I moved on.

I can't recommend bone broth enough. You can even get Pacific brand organic turkey bone broth on Amazon. I think Walmart has it too. Then, just like you do babies with tender tummies, you gentle add in mild healing food into your diet - all the while doing the bone broth.

It is all a guessing game - for us and for the doctors. They try meds and then they try others. We all search for the combo that works individually for us. And it is frustrating to take one step forward and two steps back, or moon walk in place.

It tries your patience, gets tiring trying to get rid of a disease and it becomes a full time job. It also CONSUMES your life. You eat, drink, sleep, ache and hurt constantly and you can't quit reading or looking for answers.

It is the life of a person with lyme.

But, hang in there and be one that heals. One that all of a sudden we, here on this forum, never hear from again and we wonder...... That is why I am still here. So many just split. I don't blame them. Life is for living, not sitting at a computer. I just want someone to know that you can heal. Here I am! An old fart lady that got bit and healed! So you can do it too. Won't happen fast, won't be easy, but doable.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, PeteZa. This encouragement means a lot. Fortunately, Pirouette directed me back to this post. I missed it, earlier today, as I work from home and was trying to handle my job and read/post on the forum.

You exemplify what is so wonderful about the folks in this community. I appreciate you and am grateful for your continuing to show up, respond to questions, and offer advice. In my mind, serving others is the highest calling.

May you always remain healthy and happy.

The Dude