quinolones in cat's claw and stephania

After reading several articles I have come to the conclusion that both these herbs have derivatives of the quinolone class of antibiotics and share the similar side effects of tendon damage, etc. I know it was discussed in an earlier post so I did more researching.

http;//www.lymebook.com/lyme-grapefruit-lauricidin-colloidalsilver-samento

This site states that T.O.A.-free Cat's Claw has antibiotic properties and the antibiotic component of the herb is attributable " to the considerable quantities of quinovic acid glycosides found in the herb , which are natural precursors to pharmaceutical antibiotics known as Quinolones."

There were several sites stating that Stephania has derivatives of quinolones and I will site them later.

So, now I have a dilemma of how to pursue the Buhner protocol. Do you think I could still heal not using those herbs including not using JK?

Patty

summer16 said...
After reading several articles I have come to the conclusion that both these herbs have derivatives of the quinolone class of antibiotics and share the similar side effects of tendon damage, etc. I know it was discussed in an earlier post so I did more researching.

http;//www.lymebook.com/lyme-grapefruit-lauricidin-colloidalsilver-samento

This site states that T.O.A.-free Cat's Claw has antibiotic properties and the antibiotic component of the herb is attributable " to the considerable quantities of quinovic acid glycosides found in the herb , which are natural precursors to pharmaceutical antibiotics known as Quinolones."

There were several sites stating that Stephania has derivatives of quinolones and I will site them later.

So, now I have a dilemma of how to pursue the Buhner protocol. Do you think I could still heal not using those herbs including not using JK?

Patty

So maybe the 'regular' CC doesn't have the 'considerable quantities' that the TOA free does?

I did read thru that thread and I'm not convinced that they are the same as the fluoroquinolones.

Has anyone experienced or know someone who has had one of those side effects from the CC? You'd think if it was happening - with the large number of people taking the CC - it would be known

So, if I don't take JK, cat's claw or stephania what else can I use? Since stopping them my anxiety has lessened. When I took Levaquin I had extreme anxiety and panic attacks as it affected my cns. I am so confused.

Oh man here we go again. I can't deny that cats claw has quinolones because they are natural compounds but quinovic acid is not related to quinolone drugs. I urge anyone with that confusion to simply look up the chemical structures and try to superimpose them. Hint: you can't

I'm not going to keep making this point so it's anyone's choice to find something to be afraid about. But I'll say it this one last time because this is not a rationale concern from a chemical and pharmacological standpoint. I spent months worrying about liver damage from knotweed (which is a 100x more valid possibility than these two chemicals being related) but in the end I'm taking it with no issue and doing fantastic. The course of this illness is uncertain. Don't let fear prevent healing. Especially fear based on nonreality

Post Edited (Psilociraptor) : 6/14/2017 8:50:48 AM (GMT-6)

This article actually may be more applicable to the question:
buhnerhealinglyme.com/herbs/fluoroquinolone-toxicity-syndrome-and-samento/

The last part of the question:
"After researching it (samento), I saw that Dr. Lee Cowden claims that its antimicrobial effects are due to the quinovic acid glycosides on which quinolone antibiotics are based. I told my naturopath and called Nutramedix. Both assured me that there are no quinolones in Samento and there won’t be any similar reactions. Reviewing the chemical structures of both leads me to believe there are no similarities, I can’t be sure they won’t have similar reactions. I already started using the samento and have been feeling much worse. Is this just a Herxheimer reaction or am I potentially worsening my FTS symtoms by taking the samento? Please get back to me soon. I am suffering horribly already and extremely frightened by the prospect of making matters worse when I desperately want to get better.

Stephen’s response:
There are no similarities, however, some people don’t respond well to samento. I personally believe that TOA-free cat’s claw does create more side effects than the whole herb does and I have seen this before. Just stop using it."

We had a debate on this several days ago.... I still do not agree that the CC has the properties of the fluoroquinolones.

Considering it's Wikipedia - not sure if I would rely on that.

is there any other information besides Wikipedia that says that?

Anyone can add to Wikipedia.

Yikes - I would be concerned as well, summer16 - after your experience with being floxed.
You have every reason to want to know without a doubt if it can do the same damage.


Have you totally healed the damage from the previous fluoroquinolone floxing?

Yeah unlike quinovic acid, tentrandrine from Stephania is actually a quinoline. Wiki is right here, quinolines and quinolones are related in that quinolones are simply ketone derivatives of quinoline. In other words they are quinolines with the addition of a single oxygen atom. Your experience is definitely horrifying. I can't honestly say that i believe Stephania would be on par with fluoroquinolone but i could understand why you would be hesitant to try.

summer16 said...
Thank you for your replies. There were a few other sites but to be honest I just didn't have the mindfullness to post them. I am not going to take those tinctures. Do you guys have any ideas what I could take in place of them. If not, can I still get better without them?

I was, am, in the same situation you're in, was floxed and found that certain herbs can cause similar to fleuroquinolone problems. I'm on salt c and am not sure that is a good protocol for everybody, it's pretty tough going.....but what was a lot easier going and arguably more effective, though, who knows, everybody is different, and lots of salt-c people have found some significant benefit, is o-zone, which i've been doing about 8 months, with colloidal silver, and some non-suspect herbs, these being, teasel and houttuynia and recently red root. I also do homeopathics off and on...but the o-zone is really powerful, and I think it has relieved some of the floxed issues as well as lyme and co., though, if I do too much physical stuff, I still have flairs. I bought a portable o-zone machine from on online co. for a reasonable price which came highly recommended and has been used by many others, and I have an oxygen tank that needs to be filled about every two months....basically for under $500.00 I can home treat indefinitely.. also have a colloidal silver making machine so that also can be made/done at home indefinitely...so if money is an issue, it's all very affordable.....I just wish I had done the o-zone sooner. The only caveat I have about o-zone is that some users use the cheap Chinese made so-called detox saunas and run o-zone into the tent...these tents are made from PVC, are very toxic and really defeat their stated purpose...you can either have a non-toxic custom sauna built, or simply use insufflation, ear insufflation, ozonated water..and other techniques..i'm not using a sauna and still getting great results.

Post Edited (tonesg) : 6/14/2017 8:32:57 PM (GMT-6)

Randy Eichner said...
I think the bigger issues here are
Relying on pharma info as gospel
And realizing all pharma derivatives of isolated constituents of herbs are major ******ized children.
Many people for centuries have been using these herbs for healing.

Yeah this. Ultimately what happens in a lab is a very rudimentary attempt to influence natural systems. Not to say herbs are 100% safe, but generally speaking you're talking about dozens if not hundreds of chemicals working together towards an outcome often times with long evolutionary relationship to humans and the mammals before us. Toxic effects may be nullified by other constituents of the plant. Toxic effects may simply be the result of a laboratory modifications. Toxic effects may result from the fact that large doses are required for synthetic analogues vs those required for plants since synergy applies. Again that doesn't mean people "won't" get floxed by natural compounds. If you've been floxed i can understand the hesitation. But the context is so different it's bordering on being incomparable. An herb really needs to be looked at as a whole instead of a vessel for a part. I wouldn't touch a fluoroquinolone personally but i would have no issue eating most of these herbs for extended periods. The past few days my nerve pain has been nearly nonexistant from knotweed alone