Dormant/latent infections?

I'll give a quick post of what I do know and when I have some more time I will come back and add a little more information.

Basically it all depends on the infection. Mono Is a big one. Mono is cause by the EBV (virus) and 90% of people will have it by late adulthood, most show no signs although everyone lives with it for life. But... The worse the initial infection is then the worse symptims you have down the road.

Personally, when I got lyne disease I read about its effecys in latent infections and I decided to try taking valcyte to lower my levels of EBV. To my surprise its did take away some of my symptoms. Mainly lethargy, some other subtle changes.

This depends on what you're talking about. A pathogen can become dormant in which case it may still cause disease due to expressing inflammatory antigens. It is only dormant in the sense that it is not actively dividing and it's metabolism has been greatly reduced. On the other hand you can have asymptomatic disease which probably just has to do more with the pathogen load being small

Psilo -

Can a pathogen living within a biofilm be dormant? Does the real estate make a difference?

Kaitlin -
Here is an interesting discussion about that very question regarding viruses and EBV. I'm not sure we ever reached a solid conclusion but generally, I think the EBV IgG vs IgM is also not entirely consistent with other infections. I think you can have IgG EBV antibodies with current flare or reactivated EBV. I just don't think the typical rules make a lot of sense based on what many patients who know their bodies and manifestations of EBV (like me) are actually experiencing. Many of us have had MDs tell us our very obvious EBV sx are probably not EBV since the IgM is normal. I think it's more complicated than that.

Viral loads:
www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3618192

And more info on EBV:

Natural antivirals:
I LOVE the Beyond Balance IMNV-II and III (they have several herbs)
Olive leaf
Oil of oregano
Licorice
Houttuynia
Ginger
Chinese Skullcap
Astragalus
(there are many other herbs that have anti-viral properties)
Provocation Neutralization
Samento

*****

EBV:

Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) has been one of the infectious candidates implicated in RA for several years. In 2004, Balandraud et al .[8**] summarized the present knowledge of the poor control of EBV infection in patients with chronic RA. The patients have higher levels of anti-EBV antibodies than do healthy control individuals. In addition, EBV-specific cytotoxic T cell function, which is needed for the control of the chronic
infection, is defective in patients with RA; this probably causes the
increased viral load observed in the patients. There is no good evidence in favor of the primary infection as a trigger of subsequent RA.[9]

The authors concluded, however, that on the basis of the above-mentioned immune aberrations, EBV would be a good candidate to trigger chronic immune complex disease. In fact, in a cohort of 45 patients with recent-onset RA, the patients produced increased quantities of immunoglobulins when their peripheral blood lymphocytes were stimulated by EBV in vitro .[10]

The enhanced response to EBV predicted the development of joint destruction (erosions) in the patients during the subsequent 2-year follow-up.[10] This is indirect evidence of an abnormal response to EBV, and in the case of EBV infection in a patient during the incubation phase of RA, this would be an indicator of a more persistent and destructive form of arthritis.most common cause of hypothyroidism in the U.S.

Cytomegalovirus, EBV, and parvovirus B19 have been observed to persist in a latent form in the synovial fluid and synovial tissue of patients with RA and psoriatic arthritis, but less frequently in those with reactive arthritis (ReA).[11*,12]

The authors interpreted this as further evidence of a primary role of these viruses in autoimmune arthritis. Another explanation for the
persistence of viral antigens in the inflamed synovium was suggested by Stahl et al .,[13] who presented evidence of the presence of single or multiple viruses (cytomegalovirus, EBV, herpes simplex virus, parvovirus B19) in the synovial fluid or synovial tissue of patients with various forms of early arthritides, irrespective of the diagnosis. In the few trauma patients who were examined, no viruses were detected ( Table 2 ).[14]

Thus, a very logical explanation might be that the circulating inflammatory cells harboring the viral DNA of persisting viruses migrate as innocent bystanders into the inflamed synovium.report suggests a causal association with Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, the Other herpesvirus infections have previously been associated with acute arthritis. Varicella zoster virus has been demonstrated in the joint fluid in a patient with acute arthritis associated with chicken pox, and cytomegalovirus in the synovial fluid of a patient with acute shoulder
arthritis after kidney transplantation.[14,15] HHV-6A is the least commonly detected human herpes virus. A recent XXXXX(sorry - incomplete)

www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507250_2

There are a couple of products that test well against EBV and other viruses but nothing completely remedies it on her machine except the imprinted drops (frequencies put in a drainage remedy similar to a mild rife effect).

Lysine is very helpful as is a product called Total VirX. BioPure's Viressence is also helpful. American Neutriceuticals' I plex is anti
imflammatory and tests well against RA and EBV.

www.greatdanelady.com/articles/systemic_yeast_infections_in_humans.htm
www.brightsurf.com/news/headlines/33784/Epstein-Barr_a_virtual_look_at_a_vexing_virus.html
www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/2010/06/27/be-aware-of-the-epstein-barr-virus/
[urlhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3033110/

EBV is hard on the liver, candida thrives on a weak liver

*****

And I'm not sure of the context within which you're asking the question, but getting virus titers under control is VERY important for Lyme & Co tx - it's pretty tough for the immune system to be available for Lyme if it's overwhelmed by high viral loads. I had a significant shift in my tx when I got on the right antiviral and the right doses.

Always - if you're taking antiviral Rx, please also protect liver/kidneys with milk thistle seed and/or burdock root. For those who are sensitive to those herbs, there are good liver cleanses you can do.

-p

Post Edited (Pirouette) : 10/9/2017 12:24:38 PM (GMT-6)

astroman said...
Pirouette- "candida thrives on a weak liver"

Interestsing, never heard this before. Are there links on this? It might explain things.

Not to point out the obvious but every illness would be intensified by a weak liver. Candida is pretty clear to recognize if you have it. the symptoms are GI problems and also you can see it on the back of your tongue and in your mouth. Also Candida is not as common as people think it is.

MAF249 said...

astroman said...
Pirouette- "candida thrives on a weak liver"

Interestsing, never heard this before. Are there links on this? It might explain things.

Not to point out the obvious but every illness would be intensified by a weak liver. Candida is pretty clear to recognize if you have it. the symptoms are GI problems and also you can see it on the back of your tongue and in your mouth. Also Candida is not as common as people think it is.

Actually, yeast/fungal overgrowth is pretty common. Candida albicans is actually found in every human, both in and on the body - much like basic bacteria. So an imbalance is also pretty common, particularly with the abundance of sugary and highly processed diets and the fact that most animal foods processed in this country are from animals pumped with antibiotics (80% of the abx sold in this country are sold to animal food producers). It won't take much for the average person to develop overgrowth. An unhealthy diet and stressful lifestyles and other environmental "toxins" we live with all contribute to weakened immune systems, which in turn allow overgrowth to flourish.

It's just that the conventional medical industry understands very little about overgrowth and fails to recognize it or understand how to treat it so it's not a highly diagnosed condition.

There are far more symptoms and complexities than coating on your tongue and GI problems - you might be interested to read my thread.

Yeast/fungal toxins create toxins that are particularly hard for the liver to metabolize and detox--acetaldehyde and ethanol, among others. Many alcoholics have a compounded problem because they've also created a self-perpetuating yeast/fungal overgrowth that demands the sugars from the alcohols and compounding the risk of fatty liver.

Getting around to Astroman's post -
I copied that info and that specific sentence from wherever I pulled that study, I think... it's been a couple yrs so I can't recall specifically. But here is a great article on liver function that was interesting. It mentioned that many w/ y/f overgrowth also have fatty liver problems but doesn't go into the relationship in detail (maybe one of the studies linked in the article does). And states that the cause/correlation is not currently understood. But that, of course, resolving the y/f issues can improve liver health:
/www.yeastinfection.org/fatty-liver-and-candida-infection-is-it-connected/

-p

Psilociraptor said...
This depends on what you're talking about. A pathogen can become dormant in which case it may still cause disease due to expressing inflammatory antigens. It is only dormant in the sense that it is not actively dividing and it's metabolism has been greatly reduced. On the other hand you can have asymptomatic disease which probably just has to do more with the pathogen load being small

It's funny to see that more and more people understand that mechanism of immune system attacking non-dangerous entities (dormant pathogens seen as Antigens).

That was the big issue with chronic lyme: most doctors kept saying, infection is not there, BUT your body is still reacting AS THOUGH it were there.

They were not totally wrong, either, in the sense above : EVEN when pathogens go dormant, do not reproduce, a bit like a bear going in hibernation will not eat anything, barely consuming oxygen - the body can still THINK that they are active and continue causing inflammation.

For the patient, he will be still suffering immune reactions, like it was stipulated for patients suffering from 'post lyme disease' (= no more active infection, but active immune reactions).

Of course, they JUST missed the part that there were active infections for most patients.

but it's nice to see that the lyme community is evolving too, to wonder about such long lasting immune reactions.

Here in Europe, there is way to determine if your body reacts to Antigens of Borrelia burgdorferi or to 'actual' Borrelia burgdorferi (through bioresonance).

I have a few nosodes with Borrelia Antigens too, that I also treated, once active infection got dormant.
I did feel improvement in symptoms after treating Bb Antigens. Most people do feel.

What we treat then, is like the memory of Borrelia, to quieten the immune system...

I call my Bb dormant, because I feel no symptom from lyme anymore.

Unless these Antigens are not treated, I guess, you got to wait very long to see total elimination of symptoms on its own?

Pirouette said...

MAF249 said...

astroman said...
Pirouette- "candida thrives on a weak liver"

Interestsing, never heard this before. Are there links on this? It might explain things.

Getting around to Astroman's post -
I copied that info and that specific sentence from wherever I pulled that study, I think... it's been a couple yrs so I can't recall specifically. But here is a great article on liver function that was interesting. It mentioned that many w/ y/f overgrowth also have fatty liver problems but doesn't go into the relationship in detail (maybe one of the studies linked in the article does). And states that the cause/correlation is not currently understood. But that, of course, resolving the y/f issues can improve liver health:
/www.yeastinfection.org/fatty-liver-and-candida-infection-is-it-connected/

-p

Oh.I know all about candida........and leaky gut since I had both many times. Piro-thats a good liver link. Explaining what a "fatty liver" is and how high triglycerides contribute. My tri's are good livers not fatty, but I have a list of liver detox gene issues, which there is little info on.

(Between my liver, Hashimoto, and whatever these tick infections did, I'm guessing I'll never feel 100% normal again. Thats just being realistic.) this thing is putting MY comment in the wrong place...-AM

Post Edited (astroman) : 10/10/2017 7:19:00 PM (GMT-6)

Psilociraptor -

Ok, it's starting to make more sense.

So in certain infections both active and dormant forms can cause immune responses. Do you know if EBV and the common co-infections have this ability as well.

Do other infections change into different forms when they go dormant?

hhttp://sueyounghistories.com/archives/2008/10/31/gunther-enderlein-1872-1968/

http://www.cardstonmed.com/pleomorphism-the-cure-for-all-chronic-diseases.html

http://www.alternative-cancer-care.com/cancer-fungus-link.html


http://www.health-science-spirit.com/pleomorphics.htm

I haven't read it all , but the 4th website speaks about mycoplasma and lyme.
There is also a small part on autoimmune

Post Edited (Jinna) : 10/11/2017 2:36:22 PM (GMT-6)

Jinna said...

Psilociraptor said...
This depends on what you're talking about. A pathogen can become dormant in which case it may still cause disease due to expressing inflammatory antigens. It is only dormant in the sense that it is not actively dividing and it's metabolism has been greatly reduced. On the other hand you can have asymptomatic disease which probably just has to do more with the pathogen load being small

It's funny to see that more and more people understand that mechanism of immune system attacking non-dangerous entities (dormant pathogens seen as Antigens).

That was the big issue with chronic lyme: most doctors kept saying, infection is not there, BUT your body is still reacting AS THOUGH it were there.

They were not totally wrong, either, in the sense above : EVEN when pathogens go dormant, do not reproduce, a bit like a bear going in hibernation will not eat anything, barely consuming oxygen - the body can still THINK that they are active and continue causing inflammation.

For the patient, he will be still suffering immune reactions, like it was stipulated for patients suffering from 'post lyme disease' (= no more active infection, but active immune reactions).

Of course, they JUST missed the part that there were active infections for most patients.

but it's nice to see that the lyme community is evolving too, to wonder about such long lasting immune reactions.

Here in Europe, there is way to determine if your body reacts to Antigens of Borrelia burgdorferi or to 'actual' Borrelia burgdorferi (through bioresonance).

I have a few nosodes with Borrelia Antigens too, that I also treated, once active infection got dormant.
I did feel improvement in symptoms after treating Bb Antigens. Most people do feel.

What we treat then, is like the memory of Borrelia, to quieten the immune system...

I call my Bb dormant, because I feel no symptom from lyme anymore.

Unless these Antigens are not treated, I guess, you got to wait very long to see total elimination of symptoms on its own?

I just reread this reply and understood it much more than I did the first time. Do you have any good links about how the immune system attacks dormant infections as if they were active causing symptoms. I don't even know how to try to type that into Google to do more research.

The memory antigens of the active infection that you're speaking of refers to the inflammatory antigens on the dormant infections such as the antigens on the cyst's, right?

If we are having an immune reaction to antigens on dormant bacteria wouldn't this continue indefinitely since we will never rid ourselves of dormant infection? Or does the bacteria load of dormant infection have to shrink past a certain amount before the immune response will stop?

In the part that you're talking about the testing; do our bodies produce two different types of antibodies to the actual borellia bacteria and borellia antigens?

Is this something that would happen with anyone after a borellia infection has gone dormant or does this only happen in certain people for some reason?

Sorry for all the questions, just very curious. It helps put my mind at ease to understand more about why I'm sick.

Pirouette -

Currently doing Gemmotherapy for EBV in preparation for more extensive natural antivirals (my system is a mess) have you ever had anything like coffee grounds in your stool?

Sorry, I know this is kind of a personal question, but I go to get a sample taken Friday and from what I've read its either bacteria being shed or I'm bleeding from somewhere. I PERSONALLY think its bacteria, but I'm also anemic, so who bloody knows....

Any more info or direction on great EBV threats would be AHHHH-mazing. <3

Thanks so much for all of the info above!!

Gabybee-

I inadvertently did bee venom therapy.... as in... got stung by a bee and my whole system went COMPLETELY out of whack and came off of a period of feeling great to feeling like DEATH warmed over.... its good for EBV?

My ND called Dr. Armin today and had a long chat with him about my bloodwork and apparently they're now convinced my coxsackie virus is the thing most spiralling out of control.

Still not sure...