Did anyone ever come back here to tell us the Buhner protocol fully healed them?

I'm on the Buhner protocol and I'm definitely seeing improvement.

But I could really use some reassurance tonight if it could possibly fully heal me? Feeling very worried.

I'm one of those people who literally can't take any antibiotics (I tried). So this protocol working is really important to me.


Thank you so much.

LymeSick 🌟 said...
I'm on the Buhner protocol and I'm definitely seeing improvement.

But I could really use some reassurance tonight if it could possibly fully heal me? Feeling very worried.

I'm one of those people who literally can't take any antibiotics (I tried). So this protocol working is really important to me.

Thank you so much.

I'd be skeptic to any people saying they've reached remission from alternative treatment.

A lot of people just say they're in remission, but still stuck at 70% - 90% health. The reality is, there's a lot of people that are embarrassed, because they've said their cured one day, then months later the bacteria comes ravaging back. Yolanda Foster is a good example, a woman who has tried a lot of alternative treatments and made a lot of claims, but still dealing with Lyme.

I think patients end up sticking with the claim they've made months ago or a few years ago. For some people, sticking around on the forums can be very damaging to one's psyche, so they end up leaving and moving on. Then others make claims they've reached remission!

I know for a fact a lot of lyme literate physicians think just because a patient disappears from their practice, they think they've cured them. Couldn't be further from the truth, without a doubt LLMDs help patients, but what percentage of their patients actually reach remission? I know for a fact in Michigan it's a very very small percentage, because there was only like one LLMD that actually used the right antibiotics that worked, like Flagyl, Tindamax, and Ceftin.

Thing with lyme disease patients is, some days they feel cured, then some days they immediately crash the next day, next week or even next month. Reality is, if you're not symptom free for a long portion of the time, I'm talking 4-6 months, maybe even a year, you're not in remission. Lyme has dormant bacteria, biofilms and a very slow life cycle which cause all this confusion.

Then there's the people that say they're living in harmony with the bacteria, something Dr. Klinghardt preaches. Last time I check, your body will not be living in harmony with other forms of persister cell diseases like Leprosy, Tuberculosis, and Syphilis. I know what this guy means by bringing the bacteria down to a tolerable level for your immune system, but you find me a herbal protcol that can bring Leprosy and Tuberculosis down to a level where your body can manage those bacteria let me know... Human beings failed for centuries until antibiotics were created, a lot of snake oil was pushed over the years....

It wasn't until this recent breakthrough in the John Hopkins study on persister cells that they've finally made the connection that a lot of the same persister cell drugs for Leprosy and Tuberculosis might help patients with Chronic Lyme Disease. In last 2 years, there's been a good portion of patients through Dr. Horrowitz and Dr. Jemsek's practice reaching remission with persister cell antibiotics Dapsone and Pyrazinamide.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still very much believer in naturopathic treatment. 2 years ago I was off antibiotics for 7 months, using CBD oil and Rick Simpson Oil. It was a good way to take a break from antibiotics, but I was never symptom free and the bacteria came ravaging back after 7 months. There were days of course, including weeks where I felt normal. But there was always a few symptoms like fatigue that were always there.

I've been dealing with this disease for almost 7 years now, I've seen a lot of BS put out on the forums, a lot of BS...

Maybe one day they might find a herb or herb combination strong enough to put Lyme intro remission, but right now Buhner nor Cowden is having very inconsistent results. My personal opinion is using them in collaboration with antibiotics is the best way to fight this disease. The recent one which I completely support, even though a lot of patients say can't reach the blood stream is Stevia.

I used Sweetleaf Whole Leaf Stevia Concentrate with 25mg Dapsone on a daily basis this past year, I made strides I never made before with any other antibiotic I used. I felt clear headed, energy levels that Dr. Horrowitz described his wife was feeling. It was like a dark cloud lifted off my head! I find that Stevia even works well with Tindamax, Ceftin and Doxy too, these other antibiotics have been shown to be potent against round body forms and persister cells.

I hate to tell you this, but I think it's a reality of the situation. I think herbals still might get you to 80%, like what Dr. Jay Nielsen said in this video in Reluctant Preppers. But then again, percentages are just numbers tossed around, everyones guessing how they feel and what percentage of bacteria is left in your body, not to mention the coinfections
https://youtu.be/WlQukRz_Rj8

They recently just stated in a new study that oregano oil worked really well against persister cell borrelia.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmed.2017.00169/full

But remember, there's a reason why antibiotics have been made. After scientists found antibacterial material in the environment, they compounded into an artificial form to make it 10x more potent. What part of oregano oil is actually antibacterial, how much would you need to take in order for it to reach the blood supply in order to kill the bacteria in vivo. Remember all this is in vitro, why people are so skeptic on Stevia actually working in the body.

If scientists would just find the part of Stevia that makes it kill biofilms, then compound it into an intravenous form of antibiotic, Doctors may have a cure on their hands. It may be what the company Curza is using for their CZ-1-99 drug.

From my experience, I've found that putting it underneath the tongue and holding it, can help the absorption. Stevia is meant for the biofilms anyways, you'll still need something very antibacterial to kill of the round bodies, active spirochetes, and L forms I believe.

I'm well aware of what you said and take into consideration antibiotics aren't for everybody, because everyone's genetics and bodies are different. some people just can't tolerate them for years on end. I say don't give up hope and keep treating, stay strong regardless, I stayed optimistic regardless of how crappy I felt all these years.... And guess what, I'm back to benching 300 pounds, running 4-5 miles a day.

I could be entirely wrong on just treating with herbs, but this is the conclusion I've made, just my personal opinion. Maybe I'm wrong! I think it's good stay open minded regardless about Lyme Disease as Dr. Ying Zhang said in the video down below. I just know that there's "a lot of people" getting taken advantage of with alternative treatments, just be aware of that. A lot of supplement companies making a lot of money of Chronic Lyme, including Big Pharma with autoimmune drugs, which I 100% do no support!!!

https://youtu.be/5oULsr1CUyI

Just keep hope LymeSick, I think some anti-biofilm drug will hit the market soon, whether it will be Curzas or Agile Sciences’ Agilyte drug. A lot of breakthroughs have been made in the last few years, it takes awhile to hit the market because of side effects, but keep hope. I assume since one antibiotic will be able to hit biofilms and spirochetes hard, rather than using multiple antibiotics, you'll probably be able to tolerate it better and be less side effects, but that's just a guess.

On the bright side, IDSA/CDC doctors are being brought up under charges of conspiring to deny lyme patients coverage. I assume this court case wouldn't have been constructed if the attorneys didn't have some sort of proof....

"To back their RICO claims, they say the insurers formed an enterprise rife with mail fraud and wire fraud with the IDSA and its panelists, by mailing fees over state lines to the panelists to pay for their allegedly fraudulent Lyme disease treatment guidelines."

https://www.courthousenews.com/insurers-accused-conspiring-deny-lyme-disease-coverage/

A lot has been happening in last few years, regardless of the little breakthroughs being talked about on the forums. I'm on Lyme Net and others, just decided to register today on this forum. I tend to lurk more than type in the last few years.

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 11/18/2017 5:07:26 AM (GMT-7)

NICE post Charlie!!!

"because there was only like one LLMD that actually used the right antibiotics that worked, like Flagyl, Tindamax, and Ceftin"

You wouldn't use Flagyl and tinidamax together - it's either/or.

Sorry - but that's not the magic bullet.
I was on Ceftin and Tini - didn't get to remission.
It won't touch the coinfections - Bart and Babs either.

I switched to herbs only after being on abx for 2 months. At that time I was at about 80%. It's now been about two month,s and I'd say I"m at about 90-95%. My previous LLND wasn't very knowledge about Buhner's herb recommendations, so I mostly went from his book. Another Dr. prescribed me LDN, which really has helped with muscle weakness and pain. Obviously, I still want to get to 100%, so Monday I'm meeting with an herbalist who studied under Buhner. She also is knowledgeable about cannabis/CBD, so I'll be interested to see what she recommends in that area too. I have an appointment with a new Lyme Dr early Dec, so I'll see what her recommendations are as well.

Girlie, thanks for the info! Good to know.

1000Daisies said...
That is very unfortunate that people are skeptic of those who get better doing alternative treatments.

I have said this before and will say again. I have had epic failures in both mainstream and alternative medicines. I am all for doing the best of both worlds and whatever works for you individually.

As many of you know, my kids have been abx failures after years of trying abx. I have deep regrets about it now looking back. We have been off abx for nearly two years now. And no regrets there. My two older kids are much better off abx. Kid#1 is approaching one year of wellness, after a long, difficult, several year battle where he was nonfunctioning to now leading a normal life. Believe it or not, I'm seeing it and am very happy. Many days I doubted we could get to this wellness.

I use to believe that abx was the only way to treat. After dealing with this for several years, reading a lot, and our personal experience and learning from others, I have learned a lot and no longer believe abx is the only way to go.

Our functional medicine MD use to do primarily abx for Lyme, but he is not impressed with abx after doing it for so many years now. He now does abx less than 50% of the time, doing many alternates and having better success.

I am very grateful for choices and options.

It is unfortunate to see so much negativism toward those who seek alternatives, especially when abx fails. I do believe in abx, but they have their time and place.

The only right treatment for an individual is one that works for that person. Good luck to all who are finding their own paths in healing.

Thank you, 1000Daisies! Well said. 👍

Here's an author who healed herbally. She resides in Canada and was unable to get abx treatment.

I think she mentions it in the first 10 minutes ...of her lecture.


This was prior to 2014.

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXcCXFdDi20

She is still well today. I'd call that remission.

LymeSick 🌟 said...
I'm on the Buhner protocol and I'm definitely seeing improvement.

But I could really use some reassurance tonight if it could possibly fully heal me? Feeling very worried.

I'm one of those people who literally can't take any antibiotics (I tried). So this protocol working is really important to me.


Thank you so much.

Lymesick,

You asked a great question. Hopefully some who have reached full or significant recovery will see this and respond with their personal experience.

I feel like I'm in the same boat as you. I had a very brief course of minocycline, which made my symptoms worse and caused a great decline for me for 2 months. I'm not sure that I ever fully recovered to what I was before that. I'm allergic to quinoline drugs so I can't take those, and I have a family history of severe reactions to sulfa drugs, so I wouldn't be able to use quite a few of the typical abx for coinfections.

I'm in my 6th month of Buhner's protocol and am also seeing improvements. I still have a long road ahead to treat all the infections though. At this point, I expect to be treating 18-24 months. Not much different than long term abx I guess.

I believe that we all have our own decisions and choices to make about how we choose to treat.

I believe that this forum doesn't promote any member to do one particular kind of treatment.

This is an excellent forum for support, with caring members that should respect what choices others make in their treatment.

Members here help each other with answering questions about various subjects to do with Lyme and co.

Then we each have our own responsibility to take that information and do our own research, and then make our own decisions about what will work for us or what we are willing to try to get better.

Frankly, I think we can agree that there is no magic bullet to heal from these co infections.

We have learned here from others that what may work for one person may not for another.

We have learned that one person may heal quickly and others it may possibly take a lifetime.

Makes sense to me since we are all different.

For me , I'm going to spend my time and focus on getting better and keep the attitude to keep moving forward, to have faith in the treatments I have chosen, and faith in others knowledge that have come before me here.

I don't feel I am embellishing the truth about my improvements or my set backs.

And yes, LymeSick I believe one can heal on Herbals.

The key would be to make sure you are taking the correct ones, to know when to switch things up, to know when to add or take a break from one.

Many herbals are able to bust cysts so they would address those issues.

The other great thing about some of the Buhner herbals are that they are able to repair damage that has been done to our bodies and they help with inflammation.

Have faith and hope and don't give up. Meanwhile as we speak there are researchers trying to figure this all out so lets wish them success in their efforts.

May you continue your great progress using the Buhner herbals and keep us updated.

Take care, Jo

goshawk said...
I believe that we all have our own decisions and choices to make about how we choose to treat.

I believe that this forum doesn't promote any member to do one particular kind of treatment.

This is an excellent forum for support, with caring members that should respect what choices others make in their treatment.

Members here help each other with answering questions about various subjects to do with Lyme and co.

I'm not saying you can't make your own decisions, do what you want. I gave a more realistic in-depth view to what's going on, which this person asked for... There's obviously people that support what I said, others who strongly don't and that's fine. Lets not twist what I said and try to say I'm forcing my ideals on everybody.

I've treated for a good 7 years with a long list of herbs and a long list of antibiotics. Statistically speaking, reading the forums and from my own experience, alternative treatment doesn't have the consistently like antibiotics do.

goshawk said...


Have faith and hope and don't give up.

I agree don't give up, but I'd say look at thinks from a more scientific perspective since a lot more proof has come out this disease.

goshawk said...

Frankly, I think we can agree that there is no magic bullet to heal from these co infections.

There will always be longterm treatment for lyme just like tuberculosis, it's a persister disease like leprosy and the other persister cell disease. But truth be told, there's a lot of antibiotics that we're aware about now that are knocking years off of treatment, just like pyrazinamide has done for tuberculosis.

birthdaysuit said...


I see a lot of LLMDs say they are too busy treating patients than to read the new science, and that playing dumb can help you recover quicker.

It's scary because that's what I've been seeing in a lot of offices. I can't imagine what it's going to take to change the opinion of traditional doctors and their mentality on Lyme Disease. Because after seeing the Ottawa conference on lyme, lot of arrogant Canadian doctors are already turning their heads and acting crazy when Dr. Zhang was mentioning treating with up to 3 antibiotics and even daptomycin.

It's ok to use these drugs and IVs on Leprosy, MRSA and tuberculosis. But lyme it's not ok, this is how bad disinformation/propaganda can be once it's gets into the heads of doctors. Even though there's proof now that lyme is a persister cell disease.

So much propaganda has been put out by the IDSA/CDC on this disease as well as other non-traditional groups with alternative treatment. It's going to take a lot to start changing people's minds... Proof will be in the pudding, I just wish more patients were speaking up who have treated with some of these anti-persister cells drugs through Dr. Jemsek and Dr. Horrowitz's office.

I've seen a lot of people that can be selfish, reach remission, then move on... There's a lot of people that will never register on a forum and give their input...

At least all of you are trying to help people by expressing yourselves, I wish more people would do so... A lot of people stay silent, this is why the country is in the predicament it's in!

birthdaysuit said...


Times are changing, and we have great minds uncovering new things about Lyme and how to treat this terrible infection.

It sure is, but you still have people regurgitating the same stuff they've read online 10 years ago

goshawk said...

Frankly, I think we can agree that there is no magic bullet to heal from these co infections.

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 11/18/2017 9:24:27 PM (GMT-7)

Charlie -

Thanks for posting. I agree with a lot of what you said, disagree with some of it.

As I understand the gist of your posts, you're doubting that people heal 100% on herbs. I generally agree. But I don't think most people talking about their remission or recovery are suggesting they're 100% nor is that the aim or expectation for most people. And I doubt anyone here is expecting that several bottles of herbs are any panacea for anything.

Differentiators
More than the nature or the specifics of the treatment itself, I believe the differentiators between us - those who struggles more and who progresses faster - lie within each person's unique health and disease composition:
- overall health before being infected or relapsing
- diet and lifestyle contributing factors
- what we're infected with - what does/doesn't get diagnosed/recognized including viral/fungal/parasite loads
- functionality of their GI/immune system/HPA-axis/neurotransmitters/CNS/etc.
- how long they've gone undx, untx
- contributing DNA mutations affecting methylation and ability to detox
- how these infections have manifested and which sx dominate and how resolution is prioritized
- whether or not they have an autoimmune component in the response to the infections, etc.

............. COUNTLESS variables among us that make it impossible to claim anything absolute.

In fact, it's irresponsible to make a lot of specific claims - I catch myself doing it sometimes. The truth is, most people treating Lyme & Co are forced to discover their own path. There are no shortcuts, there are no absolutes, there is no panacea, there are few parallel knowns that apply across the board. Our individual discoveries are personal and customized.

Support
The sole purpose of this support group is not to determine what works or marginalize what doesn't. We try very hard to support people. That means support them with resources, information, understanding and compassion.

When people share their journeys and tell success stories, it's always important to consider the context and all the variables. My 70% might be your 95% - neither of us is wrong. Who am I or you to disbelieve what someone feels certain of in their experience? There might be information in testimonials that helps me on my journey and that's what's important.

What defines success?
Just because a person "returns" or relapses after successfully treating might imply but in no way confirms their original tx was insufficient. We relapse for MANY reasons. Some of us are reinfected. Most of us agree that Lyme isn't curable and that the primary goal for tx is to reduce the pathogen load and get our immune systems dominant. I can't tell if you're suggesting that we should be aiming to eradicate the microbe entirely because then I'd challenge you to prove that any one has done that and then demonstrate how it can be proved.

For Lymees, there is usually a lot more going on than just Lyme. Deconstructing this puzzle can become far more complicated than "treating Lyme". And the autoimmune component of the disease is a much larger mystery.

Most of us here are using a hybrid approach more successfully than any isolated protocol. And if you're treating long enough, you're generally going to evolve from one protocol to components of another and so on. That's pretty normal.

Specialist's fees
It is true that there are opportunists in the Lyme business, just as there are in ALL other aspects of the medical and big pharma industry and any other industry.

There are several necessary reasons that LLMDs and specialists charge a significant amount of cash up front - this is pretty commonly understood in the Lyme community - a little surprised that you're challenging it. It's easy but also lazy to paint these specialists with that bias.

Most Lyme conditions are highly complex and the kind of health histories MDs are supposed to be doing for all chronic conditions take a significant amount of time and attention. Mine required me to submit a 40+ page of health history and symptomology before my first appt, which took her time to review beforehand in order to organize her responses for our first meeting. These appts are generally 2hr appts, not the 10-minute drive-throughs that managed healthcare is forcing on doctors and patients these days. And time is money.

Next time you see your PCP ask what he/she would charge for cash for a 30-minute appointment that required a min. 30-minute prep on their part. My functional gastroenterologist who is Lyme-knowledgeable but a well-known MD and surgeon, charges $300/hr - exactly what my LLMD charges (after the initial two appts). My nurse practitioner, who also happens to be Lyme-literate charges $150/30 minutes (she works in a different practice).

The costs of seeing an LLMD won't be far off what a regular physician charges. But the other variable that gets absorbed into the higher costs is that these are specialists and there are additional requirements and demands required of them.

Also, in a climate where these specialists are hunted, some use a higher starting fee to discourage those seeking appointments for nefarious reasons. In my LLMD's case, she's had several "no shows" which costs her hundreds of dollars an hour. Unlike within managed healthcare, since she doesn't require insurance info in order to make the appt like most other MDs can, she has no recourse to recoup costs and just like everything else in business, collateral damage and profit risks are built into the cost of things.

Herbal science
Unfortunately, most of the pharma and even many herbal studies are either quite limited in discovery or purpose or are unintentionally flawed, have too small sample sizes or simply manipulated for a specific outcome. And the takeaway from most of this science is that "this is what happened in the lab, you're still going to need to try it out yourself."

Pharmaceuticals
"there's a reason why antibiotics have been made. After scientists found antibacterial material in the environment, they compounded into an artificial form to make it 10x more potent. "

That is part of the reason abx were developed. Everyone knows penicillin was discovered "by mistake". But abx developed from components of bio material also were processed in order to a) synthesize the functionality of that bio component in order to reproduce it on a mass scale and b) create a product that can be controlled and capitalized and c) since plants and bio components generally can't be patented, there was also a need to create a product/process that could be.

Anti-trust lawsuit
We've had a couple discussions about the current anti-trust lawsuit. I just wanted to share that the conflicts of financial interests shared in the lawsuit are not at all new - they were publicly disclosed over a decade ago. Nor is it the first lawsuit against the Lyme cabal.

Proof of the collusion and corruption by insurance industry has been known for many, many years. There is a reason we are deep into an epidemic all these years later. There are several other factors involved in overpowering the Lyme leadership and the system they have put in place over the past couple of decades. This lawsuit is certainly a good thing but in reality it barely scratches the surface, if at all. Only time will tell if anything or anyone is affected.

Our best approach to healing is to take in and learn as much as we can, weigh our options, and figure things out ourselves. Hopefully, this forum is doing that successfully. Ironically, more often than not, people who have healed quietly move on and we often don't hear from them as much as those who are actively finding their way through this maze.

-p