Dr. Horrowitz on Persister Drugs - Getting to What I Think's Leading to a Cure

Rikky1 said...
>>I also found out that walking and even running, if you can. Lifting weights, can help circulate these drugs through your system better.

any abx will be more effective if you moderately exercise to open up pathways and get to harder to reach spots. adding in DMSO will really pack a punch!

Dude, I'm telling you, I feel a complete adrenaline rush..... It's like nothing I felt before... As well as clear headedness...

I was out fishing this past year, doing things consistently I could never do day after day. Months before taking dapsone, it would take my body 2-3 days to recover after lifting weights.

I ran 5 miles each day this past week, for 4 straight days in a row being on pyrazinamide+clofazimine+doxy....

I was sore as hell, but I see the difference

I think Dr. Horrowitz stressed on working out with these drugs, even if it's just walking. Maybe there's something to that, I don't know, I lift weights traditionally because I'm somewhat of a bodybuilder.

And by the way, you might think I'm nuts, I told this on another board.

When I've gotten on these protocols with Stevia, I'm saying Dapsone, Pyrazinamide, even Ceftin+Doxy+Tindamax

I feel a soothing motion, massive pins in needles, twitching underneath my skin in the places where I used to have arthritis, which I don't anymore.... Is this the biofilms????

I don't know, but I never felt it before in my entire treatment. I mean sure in beginning treatment with doxy, I felt pins and needless and twitching all over my body...

But I've been treating with 7 years of antibiotics, all sorts of different once, I never got the herxing I did with these persister cells.

This is why I feel strongly behind my statements, as well as what Dr. Horrowitz said.

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 11/19/2017 7:23:11 PM (GMT-7)

Charlie55 said...

Mustard Seed said...
I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it a "breakthrough", but it is encouraging and an interesting new direction.

I'd hope that a lot of LLMD would be looking at this information.

Well this is what one of the top doctors have said and he's seen thousands of patients, that's why I quoted him... "getting to what I think's leading to a cure"

Curious why you've come to your conclusion and why you wouldn't go so far as to call it a "breakthrough"? Are you a Doctor? Have you seen multiple patients like Dr. Horrowitz?

Did you take Dapsone or Pyrazinamide? Maybe a friend did? How long did you take it? I'm curious... If so did you or he/she take it with Stevia or other persister cell antibiotics that Dr. Horrowitz recommends when your or he/she took it such as rifampin, and clofazimine.

I'm just curious, because I've heard others commenting on these drugs, some great, some good, some not so much.... I'm trying to help!

A lot of you need to come to the realization, if these drugs can hack of months if not years of treatment for patients that never improved on anything else dealing with Chronic Lyme Disease, it's a breakthrough. This is what Pyrazinamide did for Tuberculosis patients. These are persister cells drugs no one has taken before, they're trying to get to the root of the problem, as Dr. Zhang describes in this video. Scientists and Doctors will be able to replicate what works with these drugs and try them with other antibiotic combinations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oULsr1CUyI

I'm sure other patients have complex coinfections that may not progress, but so far statistically speaking these drugs are working better than any other antibiotics on the market, I can tell you this is how Dr. Horrowitz came to this conclusion in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/BZu0wEOFVM8?t=1h38m12s

All I can say is, I'm very optimistic about the new biofilm drugs set to hit the market... I love how people are still saying it's no magic cure, repeating what others have regurgitated over the years on forums. People are starting to sound like parrots on the forums. Look, persister cell disease of any sort, whether it's Leprosy, tuberculosis, syphilis will take months if not a year to treat? That's how it is still with Leprosy, Tuberculosis, and Syphilis in other countries...

NicHostetler said...


I am waiting to hear from my LLMD, but what do you think? Should I just straight to this?

Well this is the thing NicHostetler, these drugs do have more side effects than your traditional antibiotics, such as Dapsone.

You'll have to weigh the risk to reward ratio yourself. From your stand point of view, only being sick since 2016, and only trying weak herbs and antibiotics, personally you might want to try

Doxy+Ceftin+Tindamax
or
Doxy+Ceftin+Flagyl
or
Doxy+Ceftin+Alinia
or
maybe IVs if you can afford it, but you must pair it up with an anti-biofilm anti-round body antibiotic like flagyl or tindamax

But here's the thing and Dr. Burrascano talked about this years ago, if you keep using weak antibiotics like you're doing now... Your infection may be harder to treat down the road, that's why Dr. Burrascano would start off with IVs first then trickle down with orals. He even remarked how if you treat with weak antibiotics first, then use IVs later, they do not work as good. This could be the same thing with persister cell drugs...

I completely believe in hitting the borrelia bacteria as hard as you can in early stages. This is why Mandy Hughes recovered in 7 months, because she hit it hard with IVs through Dr. Jemsek, but if you see the hell she had to go through with herxing, this is what you're up against.

I know everyone still regurgitates there's no difference between IVs and Orals on the forums, I've seen it millions of times. They get this mentality because a lot of people have failed with IVs. But look, statistically speaking, no other treatment has put patients in remission than IVs, until these persister cell drugs have come out... This what I believe, I'm sure plenty of others would disagree...

But here's the thing, everyone herxes differently, I never went through what she went through with herxing. For whatever reason, women are worse with herxing, women are just built differently then men.

Charlie, could you add your email to your account so I can email you more about some of the things I have tried?

My LLMD now wants me on mepron and Zithromax. I have been on Alinia and tindamax in the past, but only for a short time (three weeks each) and only alone. My LLMD works in strange ways that I don't always agree with. But just wondering if the Mepron and Zithro is something I should do, or push for these persistent combos?

I had a huge fair in sx in early 2016 but have delt with Lyme issues for much much longer. Probably most my life. I am 24.

So anyone trying these persister cell drugs, I want you to try something.....

Try this SweetLeaf Whole Leaf Stevia Concentrate right after you take Dapsone or Pyrazinamide, put 4-8 drops under your tongue, hold for 30 seconds, tell me what you feel afterwards???

https://www.iherb.com/pr/Wisdom-Natural-SweetLeaf-Whole-Leaf-Stevia-Concentrate-2-fl-oz-60-ml/5276?ccode=us&currcode=USD&langcode=en-US&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz9fEppDM1wIVzYF-Ch1_2wu6EAQYASABEgLE-_D_BwE

Or buy some xylitol of any kind, get some clear capsules, but the Xylitol sugar in them, swallow the pills after taking them with Dapsone or Pyrazinamide. Even try the Stevia liquid with the Xylitol in these clear pills, let me know what you feel?

This is a big one, try taking Lifeway Kefir Triple Berry, which is sweetened with Stevia, take it with Dapsone or Pyrazinamide, tell me what you feel? Even after 2 hours, which is recommended with probiotics, let mew know what you feel?

I've heard others herxing even on the Zevia pop with certain antibiotics....

Be careful, you might fall out to the floor, I'm not kidding... Good luck and take care...

I think the Stevia Lifeway Kefir is a double whammy, because you're using not only an antibiofilm buster but introducing probiotics too...

Be careful doing this...

Make sure you get on a treadmill(walking slowly) after taking stevia and antibiotics together, so it circulates them in the blood together...

What's interesting about stevia is, months ago I tried taking it alone, my body gets bombarded with fatigue. I take it with antibiotics like dapsone or tindamax+ceftin+doxy, I get a lot of energy. Something to this? I think so...

Rikky1 said...
>>I also found out that walking and even running, if you can. Lifting weights, can help circulate these drugs through your system better.

any abx will be more effective if you moderately exercise to open up pathways and get to harder to reach spots. adding in DMSO will really pack a punch!

Yep.... What's DMSO? I think I saw Dr. Horrowitz mention that...

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 11/19/2017 8:12:25 PM (GMT-7)

DMSO - is a byproduct of the pulping process (wood) that has health benefits.
It is an anti inflammatory and is used in veterinary medicine on horses.
Very inexpensive.

My husband has used it for many years.

Take a look here:

/www.dmso.org/articles/information/muir.htm

My husband healed an injured tendon below his kneecap after the orthopaedic surgeon said the only option was surgery where he'd fillet the tendon so it wasn't pushing on the kneecap anymore.

Instead he applied dmso full strength to the area - and hasn't had any swelling or pain since.

He's used it for other injuries as well.

I see Dr H and he initially wanted me to try dapsone. I was nervous because I have heard some bad (and good) stories. Since I am fully funtional at about 75-80% I did not want to take any major risks.

Dr. H put me in bactrim instead bc he said it is also effective against persisters. I have a phone consult tonight but they haven’t been encouraging it like they did last year.

Bactrim doesn't seem to have the same punch as Dapsone for persisters, at least that's the word out on the street and from Dr. J in DC. I still believe that you need Dapsone, Daraprim or PZA added to any cocktail to deal a death blow to biofilms and persisters. Remember persisters aren't just Lyme specific other pathogens can also 'persist' in biofilms or other changes which frankly we just don't know enough about.

Biofilm per Dr. J is a much bigger deal than has been historically viewed. They can persist for long periods and can be quite stubborn depending on where they form.

Mustard Seed said...
The best combination was Doycycline, Ceftin, and Daptomycin at 27%.

.

'

thats the protocol i think more ppl should try.

If I were on ABX I would try that combo for certain.

Girlie said...

k07 said...
I see Dr H and he initially wanted me to try dapsone. I was nervous because I have heard some bad (and good) stories. Since I am fully funtional at about 75-80% I did not want to take any major risks.

Dr. H put me in bactrim instead bc he said it is also effective against persisters. I have a phone consult tonight but they haven’t been encouraging it like they did last year.

Did I understand- they're not encouraging the Dapsone as much now?

Could just be for me. Maybe I will ask.

It doesn't cross the BBB in normal individuals, but can get into the brain when treating meningitis, through the inflamed meninges (just like contrast on an MRI), as shown in those studies.

/academic.oup.com/jac/article/55/3/283/758329

"Daptomycin does not cross the blood–brain barrier and does not penetrate the cerebrospinal fluid of normal individuals. However, there was a 5% penetration (relative to serum) of daptomycin into the cerebrospinal fluid of rabbits with Streptococcus pneumoniae meningitis, resulting in clearance of the infection in this model."

Admittedly, this study is 12 years old. Not sure if there are recent studies looking at Daptomycin outside of meningitis. There likely are.

Yes, I would be interested to know as well.

Is it difficult to get an apt w/Dr. H?

Girlie said...

k07 said...

Girlie said...

k07 said...
I see Dr H and he initially wanted me to try dapsone. I was nervous because I have heard some bad (and good) stories. Since I am fully funtional at about 75-80% I did not want to take any major risks.

Dr. H put me in bactrim instead bc he said it is also effective against persisters. I have a phone consult tonight but they haven’t been encouraging it like they did last year.

Did I understand- they're not encouraging the Dapsone as much now?

Could just be for me. Maybe I will ask.

Will you post what you find out?

I spoke to his NP tonight and I didn’t get a chance to ask. 30 minutes goes so fast. Sorry!

Thanks for all this information Charlie! It's really helpful and inspiring!

So I think you said you're on two persister drugs and two other abx? Could you list those for us, and what you regiment is for taking them? Are you pulsing them, or taking them every day?

Girlie said...


I disagree with the statement that Zithromax is a weak antibiotic.
Both Dr. H and Dr. J prescribe it.

It's a very weak antibiotic by itself.

Dr. Horrowitz and Dr. Jemsek prescribe it with up to 1 to 2 other antibiotics, plus Plaquenil to improve it's efficacy, plus mepron if you have babesia. Using just Mepron and Zithromax won't do much, you expect zithromax to tackle all forms of borrelia, round body and biofilm, while also hitting persister cells? This is why Lyme Literate Doctors are failing.

There's an absolute disconnect to what Doctors like Horrowitz and Jemsek are using, to what the lower level LLMDs are using.

Most lower level LLMDs still think htting a parasitic infection with 1 antiparasitic and hitting borrelia with 1 antibiotic is going to do anything, while patients also have "coinfections" like bartonnela, mycoplasma, ehrlichiosis, plus viruses....

I recommended this patient to use Artemesinin+Mepron, plus Zithromax+Flagyl to start off. If Herxing is too bad, buy a pill splitter and lower the dosage.

I think a lot of LLMDs are doing more harm then good starting off with weak weak antibiotics, where they could being starting off with 2 or 3. Science has show through many studies that using weaker antibiotics or not enough antibiotics allow bacteria to survive, evolve, and become a bigger problem in the future. This is why Dr. Burrascano recommended starting of with IVs then go to orals if a patient has gone chronic. Most LLMDs are doing the opposite...

Girlie said...


I know someone who used just Mepron and Zithromax for babesia and healed.
This was prior to 2013 - and he is still in remission.
Five years and counting....

That's great, happy for them... But it's going to 2018 now, 5 years later, there's a lot more coinfections now, maine just complained of anaplasmosis surge. You get infected with anaplasmosis, borrelia and babesia in maine. You'll need more than mepron and zithromax.

Most patients will not be able to heal on just 1 antibiotic and 1 antiparasitic like mepron. Mepron is not as effective on borrelia as it is with flagyl lets say, but then again flagyl doesn't work that great on babesia.

Artemesinin+mepron+flagyl+zithromax would be a better start, maybe even Plaquenil if herxing isn't that bad...

gfields said...
Thanks for all this information Charlie! It's really helpful and inspiring!

So I think you said you're on two persister drugs and two other abx? Could you list those for us, and what you regiment is for taking them? Are you pulsing them, or taking them every day?

I listed what I was doing in multiple posts, but understand because of neuro lyme, some patients don't like reading.

I first progressed with Stevia+Dapsone 25mg to start for 3-4 months, then took 2 months break. First month 25mg Dapsone every day, 2nd month Dapsone 25mg every other day, and pulsing Dapsone at 25mg in the 3rd and 4th months, was tough to tolerate because it builds up in the body.

Dapsone was tough for me, so I couldn't manage pairing it up with Rifampin or Doxy which Dr. Horrowitz recommends. But since Dapsone is still so powerful, I felt it working more than any other single antibiotic I ever took. Blasts of energy and completely clear headedness, just like Dr. Horrowitz's wife described..

Currently on stevia+pyrazinamide+doxy+clofazimine. I take 500mg pyrazinamide+100mg clofazimine+100mg doxy in morning and 500mg pyrazinamide+clofazimine at night.

So 2 persister cell antibiotics, 1 antibiotic for active spirochetes, and 1-2 biofilm busters. Pyrazinamide is a lot easier to tolerate, but still have to be carefull because it's a strong drug, I decided to just do 1 doxy a day...

I use 2oz Stevia Whole Leaf Stevia Concentrate up to 4-5 times a day, putting 5-7 drops underneath my tongue and hold up to 30 seconds. Also use Xylitol pills on occasion.

Walking is a must for at least 10-20 minutes to get the blood circulating with these medications, you should get a rush of energy. I run for 2-3 hours, but I've found just walking for a few minutes if you can't do much even helps. Lifting weights also help...

If you're still not getting results with persister cells antibiotics, I recommend trying other coinfection drugs....

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 11/21/2017 11:04:52 PM (GMT-7)