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odd bumps on thumbs (and finger joint pain/swelling)

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Posted 1/25/2018 6:25 PM (GMT 0)
This is so random and specific, but I was wondering if anyone else had noticed symptoms like this. In the past month, my finger joints have started swelling -- and just this morning I noticed that I have a hard lump under the skin on both thumbs. It's on the side of each thumb (the side closer to the index finger), just above the crease of the joint. The lumps are hard to the touch, almost like bone, and maybe the size of a pea. They do not hurt.

I've had finger pain (and aches/pains allover) for the past several weeks, and I keep being afraid that these are signs of rheumatoid arthritis or some other kind of autoimmune disease. Frivolously, I'm also afraid that these bumps will grow and become unsightly. Right now they are not really noticeable to the eye, though they are very obvious to the touch.

My primary care doctor, who is treating me for Lyme, thinks that the joint swelling is a herx. I haven't yet had a chance to ask her about the odd bumps. My rheumatologist (who has not made any diagnosis yet) said she will order an ultrasound.

Post Edited (LilyPanda) : 1/25/2018 11:59:58 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 1/25/2018 6:32 PM (GMT 0)
There's no way to know if I have the same thing as you until you get it x-rayed, mine are bone spurs, and I have them on many of my fingers and toes, multiple ones on many of my fingers. They do swell with exertion, or with certain weather patterns - and pain, well, it's very much there as well from time to time. Other days they don't seem to hardly hurt at all, but don't have the range of motion they should. And, some days, like today, they seem to be fine- except they look funny.

I don't understand why your Rheumy is going to order an ultrasound though - that's only useful for soft tissues - not bone.
Posted 1/25/2018 8:11 PM (GMT 0)
I have bumps on both thumbs in that location, which I never noticed until I just read your post and checked. Could that be one of those weird things you don't normally notice until suddenly you're paying attention to that area? Can you check some friends' or family members' thumbs?
Posted 1/25/2018 8:41 PM (GMT 0)
Hi Dahlias. I'm almost positive that I did not have these bumps before, but I guess that's a possibility. It would honestly make me feel better to think that they've always been there -- rather than being a new and scary symptom.

I was just in a meeting with my boss, and I actually checked her hands. (We are good friends, so not quite as weird as it sounds.) She does not have these bumps.
Posted 2/6/2018 6:49 PM (GMT 0)
Just as a quick update to this thread: I had an ultrasound of my hands and wrists, and I was told that these bumps on my thumbs were due to early osteoarthritis. (This seems weird to me because I think I'm somewhat young for osteoarthritis.) There is also some synovial inflammation on some of my finger joints, which my rheumatologist said was due to some kind of inflammatory arthritis -- something like rheumatoid arthritis or Sjogren's Syndrome. She did not want to make a specific diagnosis because my bloodwork is normal (aside from a mildly positive ANA).

She does not believe these symptoms can be caused by Lyme, because (among other things) they don't fit the normal pattern of Lyme arthritis -- i.e., arthritis in one or two large joints. I'm starting to be discouraged, and starting to believe that she is right -- that these issues are due to a long-term, progressive autoimmune disorder, rather than Lyme.
Posted 2/6/2018 8:30 PM (GMT 0)
Well, with that doctor saying that it's not like Lyme means that they won't even consider it, so they won't be helpful. Many Rheumies don't know Lyme from RA or Sjorgren's Syndrome, as well as many other 'specialities'.

I have those same issues, and mine are from Lyme and company. Using anti-inflammatory herbs and others to help ease the pain until I heal is the only way to get relief for me.
Posted 2/6/2018 8:40 PM (GMT 0)
Traveler, could I ask what anti-inflammatory herbs or remedies you've found to be helpful with joint pain? I've added boswellia and increased the amount of omega/fish oil I was taking. I had also been taking curcumin supplements but had stopped for a while. I haven't noticed any relief with any of these things, though I suppose it's hard to know for sure.

Thank you!
Posted 2/6/2018 8:44 PM (GMT 0)
Well, I use high dose turmeric (with black pepper added), bromelain, ginger and then I have passion vine tincture to help with pain in general (one of my more stubborn issues), and when I simply can't stand it, I've found a combination of DMSO (99% pure) mixed with a bit of Arnica gel extremely helpful.

Right now, my knees and two fingers are the worst, and since I'm staring hard at 55, I doubt it will get any better, and - my Mom has had to have both knees replaced in her 60's due to osteoarthritis, so I won't be surprised if I end up with a diagnosis of that eventually (if I ever go back to a doctor - LOL!).

By high dose turmeric, I literally buy large bags of it, and take 3 heaping teaspoons twice a day, along with the other herbs. It doesn't take the pain away, but it does make it more tolerable. I'm not 20 any longer, so I expect to have some aches and pains, but I do need to be functional!
Posted 2/6/2018 9:23 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you so much! I will try some/all of these. During my time on this board, you've given me more useful information than even my most well-meaning doctors. If only I could send you some of the money that I've been paying them.

So have you done most/all of your Lyme treatment without a doctor? This is so impressive to me. I feel like I've spent so much time at various doctors' offices in the past 2 years, desperate for information or answers (which I don't always get).

You seem to take good care of yourself and to have a full life, so I really hope that your joint pain improves (or at least doesn't get worse) -- despite the family history.

My whole family has always been very healthy (my mom, in her mid-70s, does serious workouts every day and is an outstanding tennis player -- she plays against people half her age and usually wins). So the fact that I, at age 45, have signs of osteoarthritis is just baffling and almost embarrassing to me.
Posted 2/6/2018 9:40 PM (GMT 0)
Ha ha ha! Well, knowing I've been of help is enough!!! But, thank you so much for your very kind words. smile

This isn't my first time in the saddle with these infections. The first time around, I used a very wonderful TCM practitioner, but we did herbs only, as my first trial of pharma abx was also my last - one long continual herx for 12 months. That literally nearly killed me, so I chose to "take my chances" with herbs at that point, as herbs were not "known" to be successfully used at that time (2009 - 2010). I did heal, and for 2 years I enjoyed unbelievable health and energy - and then ended up with Addison's (too much family stress), and then had a tick attach again. When I went back into treatment, my TCM doc had retired, and there's not a doctor near me that would take me, and LLMD's were all a minimum of 8 hours one way. Yeah, I'm not doing that! So, I set out on my own to just help myself - it wasn't really a choice I had, but a situation I had to deal with. Stay sick and get worse, or do what I could. Eventually, I started school again, to be a Clinical Herbalist, and I like to share what I know is all.

I do still have symptoms, but treatments keep me functional - and boy does that make me happy!! Most of my symptoms are fairly low level, compared to what I've been through too, although as others know, those symptoms like to ramp up if we aren't careful.

LOL!! I know what you mean!! I'm always teasing my Mom that she's the one inside that Energizer Bunny outfit!! She just keeps going and going..... But, because she's always had pretty good health, she really can't relate or understand what I have gone through, and made my childhood pretty rough as doctors weren't helping me, and she couldn't even relate to what I was going through.

More than any one thing, it's about total support for my body in any area that it needs it - a well functioning body will be better able to fight off pathogens. Then, I go for symptom relief so I can be as functional as I can be on any given day.

From there, because I've been through a few rounds of herbal treatments (lol), I've now chosen to do more to support my immune system rather than going after specific bacteria, although I am treating mycoplasma right now because I've never been treated for that, and I do have those symptoms. I didn't really expect to survive to even see 50, so these years have been a 'bonus' for me and I intend on gathering as many years under my belt as I can!! As some may have guessed, I also still do a bunch of daily detoxing too.

It can be so hard to keep your patience as you deal with all there is to deal with - Life, these infections, family and other obligations. Find someone that you can talk to about this, it really helps ease some of the frustration, especially if you can bounce ideas back and forth about treatments and such.
Posted 2/6/2018 9:41 PM (GMT 0)
Oops!! Sorry!!! I hadn't intended on posting so much!!! LOL!

But most likely already know that I talk a lot!!! Ha ha ha!!! turn
Posted 2/6/2018 9:57 PM (GMT 0)
Please don't apologize for posting so much! I love reading your replies -- they're such an amazing combination of helpful advice, humor, and wisdom. And they are never too long.

I did not realized that you had studied (or are studying? I wasn't sure about the timeline) to be a Clinical Herbalist. That sounds incredibly interesting and useful. I constantly fantasize about going back to school or changing careers, although I doubt that will ever happen. Inertia, nervousness about change, etc. So I love hearing about other people doing things like this.

When I think about how healthy the rest of my family is, that does revive some of my hope that this may be Lyme rather than an incurable and progressive autoimmune disease. (Not that anyone wants Lyme, either, but you probably understand what I mean.) I know that autoimmune diseases can pop up even without any family history -- but maybe it makes more sense that my current issues were triggered by an external event (tick bite) than by some spontaneous defect in my immune system.

Regarding the various supplements you described -- if you have any suggestions about specific brands/sources, or dosages, I'd be so grateful. Hope you have a wonderful evening.
Posted 2/6/2018 10:53 PM (GMT 0)
Am studying! I'm working hard at it, but dang!! They go over soo much information in each lesson! LOL!

It's an online school, as I'm in no shape to be making commitments to going to school daily still - things happen. You should check into online schools!! There are even classes you can take for free!!! College level course, at certain schools. I just love to learn, and I finally have my brain back well enough to enjoy it.

And thank you for your very kind words. I often feel like I end up rambling on and on and on!

LOL! I do understand!! I have psoriasis, and either osteo or psoriatic arthritis - but I won't go to a doctor to get tested, as I won't use the meds they would want to put me on. But, I do believe that these things were 'brought' to me because of the continued dysfunction in my body that went on for decades as I waited for someone to recognize my infections - funny how MD's don't realize that a high white cell count means an infection - even if they can't identify it!!!

I buy most of my herbs in bulk, so large bags! LOL! Most often I use well established companies like Frontier Co-op, Sage Woman herbs, Starwest Bontanicals or a few others (most are listed in the New to Lyme thread!). The main thing is to buy from places that are proven to sell high quality herbs. I shop Amazon and Walmart.com looking for those brands too - every penny I can save helps!!! LOL!

Oh, one thing, when shopping online for herbs, order early (they don't seem to ship very fast, unless you use something like Amazon), and to watch shipping costs, as those vary widely.

And, I'm sorry, but I don't remember your details - do you have a positive test? Did you respond well to treatments (herxing or symptom improvements?)? If you answer yes to either one of those, then stick with treatments, and it's likely you will see these issues lower as well. Obviously, no one here can say that you don't have RA as well, but just because you have a high ANA doesn't mean it's not "just Lyme".
Posted 2/7/2018 2:48 PM (GMT 0)
I will look into online courses. A couple of weeks ago, I attended a lecture that my boyfriend's father (an English professor) was giving on a poet that I love, and it was wonderful. It was like being in college again. I took so many notes and was so interested and happy, and it made me realize how much I miss that kind of thing.

It's crazy that your body was dealing with Lyme et al. for decades. I totally believe that those infections could have triggered your psoriasis and arthritis. (Was there any history of autoimmune issues in your family?)

I don't know if I've ever had a high white cell count on a blood test -- at least, I can't remember a doctor ever mentioning that. I wonder if that makes it less likely that Lyme is the culprit?

One odd thing about the ultrasound report was that it said nothing about the joints where I'm feeling the most pain (and seeing the most swelling). It mentioned that I had synovial inflammation on the MCP joints (where the fingers connect to the hand), but nothing on the joints of the fingers themselves (which I have recently learned are the DIP and PIP joints). The DIP and PIP joints are painful and visibly larger than before -- and the enlargement seems to have occurred very quickly, seemingly almost overnight. The swellings are hard, which supposedly is more like osteoarthritis than inflammatory arthritis -- but I think osteoarthritis doesn't usually happen so suddenly.

It is all so confusing. And because it came upon me so quickly, I'm worried that it's just going to keep getting worse if my doctors don't figure out what to do. (Right now, my rheumatologist is telling me to wait and see if the Plaquenil will help. She's also prescribed Meloxicam, which I'm hesitant to take because of the stomach issues that NSAIDs can cause, and has offered to prescribe prednisone if I want.)

In my lowest points, I also worry that it's going to start interfering with my walking at some point, because my toes are hurting too. Until just recently, I was a happy, active, pretty youthful 45-year-old -- it's surreal and crazy that that I'm now actually envisioning having trouble walking.

Thank you for the tips about herbs. I may start out with capsules at first, because the idea of buying herbs in bulk (and figuring out how to store/prepare them) is daunting to me.

To answer your questions: I've had tests that some doctors have considered positive, but I think none that would be considered a firm CDC positive. E.g., I had a test where I had 3 positive Lyme-specific IgM bands, but I read that the CDC considers positive IgM a "false positive" if symptoms have been around for more than 4-6 weeks. I had a positive DNA Connexions test (although one LLMD dismissed that as unreliable).

I don't think I've had herxing or noticeable symptom improvements with any treatment. I initially thought that the pain/swelling in my fingers was a herx, as it began after I started antibiotics recently. But it has gone on so long and doesn't seem like any herx I've seen described online.

And now it's my turn to apologize for writing too much!
Posted 2/7/2018 7:33 PM (GMT 0)
LOL!! No problems!! As you can see, I do this more often than I intend!!! LOL!

As for me, no, I'm basically the only one that has been chronically ill in my family (it's no fun being the only one!!!) - other than arthritis, and cancer, and my Mom's mom had thyroid issues of some sort.

I had all the symptoms as a child growing up, and never was able to get any further than my first year in college because of the cognitive issues I had developed by then. No one knew what to do with me - I was getting sick with all kinds of things all the time - and yet I would 'rebound' and be okay again in a few months. After looking at this for many years, understanding the truth of what I had - I think I had really good immune function as a child, so it kept "coming back" and doing battle with my infections, and I'd have several months of good health (by what everyone could see) and then get sick again.

After looking at my blood tests from several different doctors I had seen over the years, I noticed that there were lots of little clues in them that my doctors never once mentioned to me. The only reason that doctor mentioned it that time was because both my WBC ad RBC were low, and he thought that was "interesting". When I asked why he didn't think that was anything to be concerned about, he just said that he's never seen it before, so it must have been a 'fluke' from the lab. I never went back. I had seen too many blood tests that were off by then and no one was paying attention - I was too cognitively compromised to be able to follow all the research all the way to know what to do or what was going on, but I did recognize that this doctor had no desire to look into anything.

I know I've got a LOT of bone spurs!! I wasn't very kind to my body at times, and injuries were very common for me (likely related to the weaknesses we get with Lyme and company, and I still pushed my body to do what I wanted to do - and paid for it). Those bumps aren't what I was referring to though - the twisting and turning of my fingers is not from bone spurs, but I have zero blood markers for arthritis. The doctor that tested me for that, was as confused by the results as I was.

I would suggest either capsules or tinctures to start. I like working with tinctures when I'm first starting an herb, so I can do my ultra low doses to start (I live in a 'no herxing zone' that I set in place! LOL!) and then work up to a dose where I can start on capsules next. Once I'm up on a certain dose of capsules and I can see that it's helping and that I'll need more, then I move over to bulk herbs. When I take powdered loose herbs, I add them to pomegranate juice and mix well!! According to Buhner, pomegranate juice has a fairly decent anti-viral activity - plus it's taste is strong enough to 'ease' the taste of most herbs! LOL!

Please don't take the prednisone. You have an active infection, and prednisone will lower your immune function even more and allow those infections to really rage. The only exception to this is when it's prescribed in "subclinical" amounts for adrenals.

Above all else, keep researching and asking questions!!!!!
Posted 2/7/2018 7:35 PM (GMT 0)
Oh, just read your sig line at the bottom of your posts - what have your tests for Bartonella looked like? Bartonella is it's own wicked beast for some of us!
Posted 2/9/2018 5:22 AM (GMT 0)
My message just got lost but I'll retype. I'm in a rush so sorry if I''m not clear!

1/2 tbsp Apple cider vinegar to 1/2 tbsp honey in a glass of water 3 times a day resolved osteoarthritis in two weeks for me. It was in my left hand and knee. Swollen joints. pain, etc. The mix was too sweet to stomach, so after the 2 weeks I reduced the honey to 1/4 of the ratio. I now take it 2 times a day and it works. If I slack off the OA inflammation comes back. I mix 3/4 ACV to 1/4 honey in a bottle which sits on the kitchen counter so I see it and don't forget to take it. Really, home remedies are the best.
Posted 2/9/2018 6:47 AM (GMT 0)
Just chiming in.... for reassurance or anecdotal evidence...

I had Mcp/ dip/ pip swelling... hard boney calcification bumps on fingers and back of hands. It's like the bumps were always there but just became inflamed. Also creptilis( or what the hell you call it, the noisy grind in other joints) . It was Lyme . It went away long before treatment. The migratory nature.

I. Eli eve this is fairly common. I know someone who's most likely infected with Lyme etc. who's first noticeable arthritic symptom was a bump on side of finger . Swollen and inflamed.
Posted 2/9/2018 1:43 PM (GMT 0)
Traveler, I'm sorry for the delay in responding -- I had a couple of busy days at work and home.

It's hard for me to imagine the Lyme ever caused you cognitive issues, because your posts are so sharp and eloquent, and you have such a mastery of a huge amount of nuanced information. It's great that you've been able to start classes again.

Thanks for the warning against prednisone. I have to admit that I've been tempted in the last few days to try it. My whole body has been aching, and the pain in my hands is getting worse, and the rheumatologist keeps offering me prednisone to tide me over until the Plaquenil kicks in (if I'm one of the lucky people for whom it works). But I know steroids are risky in all sorts of ways, and so I'm trying to be tough. She did prescribe me Meloxicam. I'm wary of NSAIDs because of the gut issues they can cause, but I guess it's good to know that I have it.

Re: Bartonella -- my positive test was sometime last summer. I don't have my test results handy, but I remember the result was 1:256. I think that was before I did a month of doxycycline last August. I also followed the recommendations in Buhner's Bartonella book, although I was used non-alcoholic extracts instead of tinctures (so I think they were weaker) and was only able to take them twice a day (instead of 3x/day).

The DNA Connexions test I took recently -- the PCR urine test -- did not show Bartonella. The most recent blood test I had showed a very low positive for Bartonella. The doctor who ran that test said she thought it was insignificant.

Thanks again -- hope you have a wonderful weekend!
Posted 2/9/2018 1:47 PM (GMT 0)
B99, thank you for this suggestion. I think I have read elsewhere about people using apple cider vinegar for arthritis pain, but it didn't really register with me at the time. I will try this. It doesn't seem like there's any harm in trying, and I'll be so thrilled if it helps. I hope it works for me as well as it has for you. Thank you.

Lightlife, thank you so much for your post. It has given me hope at a time when I've been really starting to despair. I had assumed that these kinds of hard, bony bumps/swellings are permanent and could only get worse. (Yesterday, in a deeply pessimistic moment, I told a friend that the swelling will "probably never go away and will just get worse and worse, and I'll end up with painful deformed hands that scare small children.")

Can I ask whether you had joint pain with the swelling in your hands? Do you remember how long the swelling was there before it went away?

I keep having people tell me that Lyme doesn't cause this kind of joint pain (in multiple joints of the hands/fingers). So sometimes I believe my rheumatologist that this has nothing to do with Lyme, and that I've spontaneously developed some kind of autoimmune arthritis. That's obviously the more depressing alternative.
Posted 2/9/2018 3:03 PM (GMT 0)
Yes I had joint swelling and pain in my fingers... it wasone of my first symptoms that reallly got my attention and sent me to a rhumy. I was sure I had rhumetoid arthritis as it was on both hands/ I had diagrams drawn out and circled all the places... it was awful. It last for several months I believe. That was ten years ago or more. The joint pain moved on to new joints... always moving never permenant. Lyme and or coinfections can most def do this . Doctors just don't know it because they know so little about the real and undisclosed effects - multi system/ multi joint issues. Get on treatment / hens if your not.
Posted 2/9/2018 3:39 PM (GMT 0)
Lightlife, thank you again. I've been terrified the past month or two about my hands -- convinced that this is rheumatoid arthritis or something similar. I didn't know anyone else who'd had these exact kinds of symptoms with Lyme, and so I was really doubting whether Lyme was the issue. (I mean, I know it's still possible that I have Lyme and some terrible autoimmune disorder, but I feel so much more hopeful now.)

I'm pretty good at dealing with stress, physical discomfort, etc., as long as I have hope. It's when I lose that hope that I start to panic.

I'm currently on doxycycline and some supplements -- Samento, Banderol, Biocidin (to address biofilm), NAC, s-acetyl glutathione. I'm also taking Plaquenil, which I started almost 4 weeks ago. I know there's controversy over whether Plaquenil is useful in Lyme treatment, but my rheumatologist (who does not buy that I have Lyme) suggested it to help with the joint pain and fatigue.

Dumb question -- what is hens?
Posted 2/9/2018 4:01 PM (GMT 0)
Lightlife -- I'm sorry, I have another question. Back when you saw the rheumatologist, do you recall if you had blood tests done? I've so far been negative for any specific autoimmune markers (for rheumatoid arthritis, Sjogren's Syndrome, scleroderma, etc.), but I do consistently have a mildly positive ANA. I've read that Lyme can cause a positive ANA, but it is one of the things that keeps me worrying about an autoimmune disease. Sorry for so many questions, and thank you again.
Posted 2/9/2018 4:09 PM (GMT 0)
Lily, I hope it works for you too. From what I read, the honey is an important part of the formula. It also makes the ACV more palatable, kind of tastes like lemonade. Like I said, it took two weeks for the pain and swelling to go away.

I told my doctor about it and he looked at me like I was from Mars! Oh well. I didn't care. I'm still searching for a naturopath who will take my insurance. They're not as quick to push pharmacuticals.
Posted 2/9/2018 5:51 PM (GMT 0)
Bartonella causes subcutaneous nodules. Treat the bartonella.

www.gordonmedical.com/unravelling-complex-chronic-illness/bartonella-like-organisms-blo-consideration-signs-and-symptoms/
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