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May have found a way to treat and disable Lyme Neurotoxin - Part 3

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Posted 1/12/2018 6:06 PM (GMT 0)
So, I'm late to the party - again.

I went back to the original post and saw that acetycholine is what "undoes" the toxic damage. Did you know that we can get this through natural means? I've been eating an egg daily, the runny egg yolk supplies approx. 115 mgs of acetylecholine per egg. This was the only food I knew I could get into me every single day without fail.

Here are some more natural sources of acetylcholine for those that are interested:

/universityhealthnews.com/daily/memory/how-to-improve-memory-feed-your-brain-with-acetylcholine/
Posted 1/12/2018 7:34 PM (GMT 0)

Traveler said...
So, I'm late to the party - again.

I went back to the original post and saw that acetycholine is what "undoes" the toxic damage. Did you know that we can get this through natural means? I've been eating an egg daily, the runny egg yolk supplies approx. 115 mgs of acetylecholine per egg. This was the only food I knew I could get into me every single day without fail.

Here are some more natural sources of acetylcholine for those that are interested:

/universityhealthnews.com/daily/memory/how-to-improve-memory-feed-your-brain-with-acetylcholine/

Yes different foods have it. I know Buhner mentions eating liver multiple times in his books.

But what becomes challenging is getting enough Choline without supplementation. The reason is because not all sources of choline is easily metabolized and broke down by the body. Also cooking. High heat/over cooking can take away the amount of of choline.

For example over easy or sunny side up eggs is the way to go. The choline is in the yoke and you don't want to over cook it.

So definitely eat these foods but with lyme a lot of people need extra supplementation of nutrients (not just choline).
Posted 1/12/2018 7:38 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
Hi dacarte3 - how ya' doing?

I'm doing really well, compared to several months ago. My main symptom now is just breaking out with pimples like a teenager.

But that's nothing compared to previous symptoms and I have to catch my self and remember how silly it is to get upset over vanity, when symptoms were so bad I thought I had ALS and was going to die.

How are you? Have you tried any nootropics in your lyme treatment?
Posted 1/12/2018 8:04 PM (GMT 0)

dacarte3 said...

Girlie said...
Hi dacarte3 - how ya' doing?

I'm doing really well, compared to several months ago. My main symptom now is just breaking out with pimples like a teenager.

But that's nothing compared to previous symptoms and I have to catch my self and remember how silly it is to get upset over vanity, when symptoms were so bad I thought I had ALS and was going to die.

How are you? Have you tried any nootropics in your lyme treatment?

I'm doing alright. Feeling better the past few months than I was previously.

No, I haven't tried any nootropics.
Posted 1/12/2018 8:43 PM (GMT 0)
Sorry my Lyme brain is preventing me form fully comprehending this thread.

However are you saying this is your Nero Symptom recommendation?

1. Alpha GPC Choline (which is NOT the same as simply choline): Once a day, 1200mg

2. EGCG: Once a day, 1500mg

3. Huperzine A: 200mcg, once a day; I've taken it both every day and every other day to experiment which works better. I'm coming to the conclusion it's not necessarily about some exact set schedule but more about listening to your own body. There may be stretches where it's daily and there may be stretches where breaks can be taken.


Posted 1/12/2018 9:13 PM (GMT 0)

Mark FW said...
Sorry my Lyme brain is preventing me form fully comprehending this thread.

However are you saying this is your Nero Symptom recommendation?

1. Alpha GPC Choline (which is NOT the same as simply choline): Once a day, 1200mg

2. EGCG: Once a day, 1500mg

3. Huperzine A: 200mcg, once a day; I've taken it both every day and every other day to experiment which works better. I'm coming to the conclusion it's not necessarily about some exact set schedule but more about listening to your own body. There may be stretches where it's daily and there may be stretches where breaks can be taken.


If your neuro lyme is causing ALS/MS and/or Parkinson like symptoms, then yes I'm suggesting that this could help.
Posted 1/12/2018 10:15 PM (GMT 0)

dacarte3 said...

Mark FW said...
Sorry my Lyme brain is preventing me form fully comprehending this thread.

However are you saying this is your Nero Symptom recommendation?

1. Alpha GPC Choline (which is NOT the same as simply choline): Once a day, 1200mg

2. EGCG: Once a day, 1500mg

3. Huperzine A: 200mcg, once a day; I've taken it both every day and every other day to experiment which works better. I'm coming to the conclusion it's not necessarily about some exact set schedule but more about listening to your own body. There may be stretches where it's daily and there may be stretches where breaks can be taken.


If your neuro lyme is causing ALS/MS and/or Parkinson like symptoms, then yes I'm suggesting that this could help.



No mine are more your brain pressure and fog

Thanks
Posted 1/12/2018 10:25 PM (GMT 0)

dacarte3 said...

Girlie said...
Hi dacarte3 - how ya' doing?

I'm doing really well, compared to several months ago. My main symptom now is just breaking out with pimples like a teenager.

But that's nothing compared to previous symptoms and I have to catch my self and remember how silly it is to get upset over vanity, when symptoms were so bad I thought I had ALS and was going to die.

How are you? Have you tried any nootropics in your lyme treatment?

Glad to hear you are improving, Decarte!!!
Posted 1/13/2018 12:05 AM (GMT 0)

Mark FW said...

dacarte3 said...

Mark FW said...
Sorry my Lyme brain is preventing me form fully comprehending this thread.

However are you saying this is your Nero Symptom recommendation?

1. Alpha GPC Choline (which is NOT the same as simply choline): Once a day, 1200mg

2. EGCG: Once a day, 1500mg

3. Huperzine A: 200mcg, once a day; I've taken it both every day and every other day to experiment which works better. I'm coming to the conclusion it's not necessarily about some exact set schedule but more about listening to your own body. There may be stretches where it's daily and there may be stretches where breaks can be taken.


If your neuro lyme is causing ALS/MS and/or Parkinson like symptoms, then yes I'm suggesting that this could help.



No mine are more your brain pressure and fog

Thanks

I see. Well those symptoms can be many things directly or indirectly related to lyme so hard to say.

Now for me, it helped my brain fog. But if lyme neuro toxins and the break down of ACE is not the cause of your brain fog then it may not help.

With lyme there's a lot of guessing of the cause and then we find ourselves doing trial and error. If you tried other things, with different assumptions of what is causing it and it was of no help then you could give this a try.

Choline in general (and the compounds it helps produce), whether someone has lyme or not is beneficial for a clear head and cognitive function.

It's where the term "brain food" came from. So its healthy generally speaking.
Posted 1/13/2018 1:37 AM (GMT 0)

Traveler said...

dacarte3 said...

Girlie said...
Hi dacarte3 - how ya' doing?

I'm doing really well, compared to several months ago. My main symptom now is just breaking out with pimples like a teenager.

But that's nothing compared to previous symptoms and I have to catch my self and remember how silly it is to get upset over vanity, when symptoms were so bad I thought I had ALS and was going to die.

How are you? Have you tried any nootropics in your lyme treatment?

Glad to hear you are improving, Decarte!!!

Thank you Trav. Recovery was significant quicker this time because I knew what I was doing this time. The first time you get lyme you know nothing, scared, confused, etc.

Second time around you're an expert and dive right in with treatment. No wasted time trying to figure things out.
Posted 1/13/2018 1:48 AM (GMT 0)
Not exactly the same thing, and I've only done them a few times, but I actually think *phosphatidylcholine* IVs are helpful -- they have been generally used to remove neurotoxins from the body.
Posted 2/1/2018 1:12 AM (GMT 0)
dacarte3 - I read this whole thread, and as you know there are many variations of similar "stacks" used by people with brain fog who dont have lyme (as far as they know). Variations seem endless LOL.

Some questions:

Alpha GPC Choline, 1200mg:
I fooled around in the past with the different Cholines their precursors ect. but didnt have obvious positives. I tested choline levels and was already above average, maybe that was why.
1-Did you ever test your levels?
2-And did you find this Alpha performing better than regular Choline?

EGCG: Once a day, 1500mg:
3-This is pretty much super condensed green tea (?) Did you ever try L-Theanine in its place?

Huperzine A: 200mcg:
4-New to me. Is this an exceptionally known way to further breakdown Choline into usable form? Or does it do something else?

Although you gained nuero health from this, was this (above) what you think helped muscle control/shaking too? I still get a little of that after the 3rd or 4th day of not working out. So there is still something/debre in my nerves and muscles that needs flushing/circulating, and working out provides that. DMSO (new to me) seems to help there so far.

When the day comes that I can play guitar right- thats when my arms and fingers/hands have completely healed.
Posted 2/1/2018 3:20 AM (GMT 0)
HPZ + EGCG supress acetylcholinesterase, the enzyme that degrades acetylcholine. HPZ alone suppresses the enzyme, but when EGCG is added the suppression lasts several hours.

alpha GPC provides the basic building blocks to increase acetylcholine levels

DHA and uridine both increase neurogenesis and encourage the formation of new synapses

this is all based on scientific studies
Posted 2/2/2018 12:21 AM (GMT 0)

Lapis_29 said...
HPZ + EGCG supress acetylcholinesterase, the enzyme that degrades acetylcholine. HPZ alone suppresses the enzyme, but when EGCG is added the suppression lasts several hours.

alpha GPC provides the basic building blocks to increase acetylcholine levels

DHA and uridine both increase neurogenesis and encourage the formation of new synapses

this is all based on scientific studies

Great summary.
Posted 2/2/2018 12:30 AM (GMT 0)

astroman said...
dacarte3 - I read this whole thread, and as you know there are many variations of similar "stacks" used by people with brain fog who dont have lyme (as far as they know). Variations seem endless LOL.

Some questions:

Alpha GPC Choline, 1200mg:
I fooled around in the past with the different Cholines their precursors ect. but didnt have obvious positives. I tested choline levels and was already above average, maybe that was why.
1-Did you ever test your levels?
2-And did you find this Alpha performing better than regular Choline?

EGCG: Once a day, 1500mg:
3-This is pretty much super condensed green tea (?) Did you ever try L-Theanine in its place?

Huperzine A: 200mcg:
4-New to me. Is this an exceptionally known way to further breakdown Choline into usable form? Or does it do something else?

Although you gained nuero health from this, was this (above) what you think helped muscle control/shaking too? I still get a little of that after the 3rd or 4th day of not working out. So there is still something/debre in my nerves and muscles that needs flushing/circulating, and working out provides that. DMSO (new to me) seems to help there so far.

When the day comes that I can play guitar right- thats when my arms and fingers/hands have completely healed.

I never tried "regular" choline in supplementation form. Of course I eat foods that contain "regular" choline.

Based on my research there is evidence that supports that Alpha GPC choline is a more efficient way to get choline. Efficient in both the bodies ability to make it and time.

Yes, EGCG is a compound in Green tea. It's the EGCG that I want. If there was another way to get it outside of green tea, I would be open to it.

Huperzine A is a compound found in Chinese club moss. See Lapis' explanation of it.

My muscle and nerve health didn't noticeably and measurably improve until I did this stack. Please keep in mind that I also take Fish oil and with this stack.

My muscle and nerve issues did not get better for a few months on just lyme herbs and vitamins alone. It wasn't until this stack, did I make great strides.

Could it be a coincidence and simply treating lyme in other ways made it better and it would have gotten better anyways? It's possible.

However, the science that Lapis and I researched shows that it should, in theory, help. Then we both did it and it helped. So I don't really "do" coincidences. I do odds and probability. And the odds and probability says it was this protocol.
Posted 2/2/2018 3:16 AM (GMT 0)
dacarte-

Fish oil / omega 3 question- what EPA and BPA amounts are in the product you use, and is it void of the "fishy burps"? thanks

Nootropics - I used to see a Functional MD/ Gene- Methalation Dr who used a very similar approach with dementia/ Alzheimers patients. Would try some similar combos on lyme patients with some success after testing choline levels. However, my choline was already higher than normal without supplementation. But with methalation pathways - higher natural levels doesn't automatically insure proper function. Funny the Dr didnt recomend EGCG since I see thats used in dimentia too, or even the better choline precursor "GPC" you two used. Think I'll try those. That said, it would be interesting to see how many Lymies do, in fact , have low chloine levels, as its not discussed here much at all.

I have used the cheaper choline and basic L-Theanine part of green tea semi-successfully for "Benadryl hangovers". I cant take a full dose of it with out major fog following, but it helped sleep when nothing else did. Not coincidentally, the way Benadryl (Diphenydamine) works as both an anti-histamine and sleep agent, is being a temporary antagonist to acetylcholine receptors. So adding Choline in the AM, somewhat "forces" the receptors to open again - like forcing a locked door open. Thats also how to reverse "reverse T3 thyroid syndrome" - just add more of the same. Funny how the body works or doesn't work.

Post Edited (astroman) : 2/1/2018 8:24:04 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 2/9/2018 4:53 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you dacarte3 for coming back and posting your findings and results. It truly means a lot to us on here. As you mentioned once people feel good they usually don’t come back so Thank you thank you for taking the time in caring to share your great news!
Posted 2/9/2018 8:27 PM (GMT 0)
I gave this stack a try and had strong effects from small doses, it convinced me acetylcholine is an integral part of my Lyme symptoms (Bart, Babs, and Bb). I hope no one attempts to start at full doses, the adverse effects could be horrible for the wrong person. There are a few sites warning about liver toxicity of EGCG in high doses with other hepatoxic drugs, it might be a risk for people on Babs treatment.
Posted 2/9/2018 8:38 PM (GMT 0)

acarined said...
I gave this stack a try and had strong effects from small doses, it convinced me acetylcholine is an integral part of my Lyme symptoms (Bart, Babs, and Bb). I hope no one attempts to start at full doses, the adverse effects could be horrible for the wrong person. There are a few sites warning about liver toxicity of EGCG in high doses with other hepatoxic drugs, it might be a risk for people on Babs treatment.

thanks, those are good points I think
Posted 2/9/2018 11:00 PM (GMT 0)

acarined said...
I gave this stack a try and had strong effects from small doses, it convinced me acetylcholine is an integral part of my Lyme symptoms (Bart, Babs, and Bb). I hope no one attempts to start at full doses, the adverse effects could be horrible for the wrong person. There are a few sites warning about liver toxicity of EGCG in high doses with other hepatoxic drugs, it might be a risk for people on Babs treatment.

As I have reached a level of recovery I'm comfortable with, I take this stack every other day now. Like with any treatment strong doses may be needed at first (that's the route I took, I'm not suggesting this right for everyone). But with anything dealing with consuming things into the human body, it's best in moderation.

I'll take this stack less and less as time goes on.
Posted 2/9/2018 11:09 PM (GMT 0)
I guess while I'm in this thread I can give a post 3 month update:


1. Muscle Weakness - None

2. Muscle wasting - None

3. Muscle building - Noticeable gains continue. My hollowed out fore arms (a big problem when muscle wasting was at it's worse) is no more. Filled out. Firm. Strong. My lower legs and calves no longer look like a cancer patients and it now just looks like slender persons legs. There's a "healthy" look to them now. What doesn't seem to come back is supple collagen. The supple collagen that younger people have. The aging process of lyme seem to have sped this up and it doesn't seem reversible, however by building muscle in it's place one can still look lean and fit.

I exercise about 5 days a week. I don't believe muscles can be repaired without exercise/physical therapy. I don't believe it just comes back on it's own.

4. Muscle twitching - 95% gone. A very mild muscle twitch or two may happen after more stressful day.

5. Off balance, wonky and wobbly legs - None.

6. Head fog - this one is tricky. This is a lyme symptom that just has too many causes when one has lyme. It can be stress. Something you eat. Gut health. Mold. Toxins. etc.

Mine seem to be stress induced. Since doing this stack (and continue to treat lyme) it no longer happens for "no reason". It only happens now if I'm really stress or very mentally exerting myself.
Posted 2/9/2018 11:14 PM (GMT 0)

Lymess said...
Thank you dacarte3 for coming back and posting your findings and results. It truly means a lot to us on here. As you mentioned once people feel good they usually don’t come back so Thank you thank you for taking the time in caring to share your great news!

You are very welcome. I hope others are seeing or will see noticeable improvement with this protocol. I really do.

Because if there's others that experienced success then that means we really found something works here for ALS, Parkinson, and Alzhiemer like, lyme induced symptoms.

Because experiencing them, even if it's lyme caused, is super scary and depressing. And I want other lymies that experience these same particular neuro symptoms to not have to experience them for any longer period of time then they have too.

That they can get on this protocol or some variation of it and they see results soon.
Posted 2/10/2018 4:07 AM (GMT 0)
dacarte-

I also read some other places mentioning egcg being paired with fish oil. Fish oil comes in many "purities" / strengths. Fish oil / omega 3 question- do you know what EPA and BPA amounts are in the fish oil product you use, and is it void of the "fishy burps"? thanks

Tried several fishy burp types LOL.

Post Edited (astroman) : 2/10/2018 5:26:29 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 2/11/2018 12:41 AM (GMT 0)
Since I have some liver gene issues, I tend to read up on how new supplements might affect liver health.

Reading up on the EGCg, large doses can raise Bilirubin levels in some individuals (which is known as Gilberts Syndrome), about 5% of adults have this. If you've had occurring Jaundice without acute or on going alcohol poisoning (your not a drunk), you prob have this issue. This will also cause fatigue.

There are several versions of a defective gene which are common in people who have this liver issue. The gene is: UGT1A1, involved in liver detox phase I.

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert%27s_syndrome[url]

D-limonene helps with liver phase II methalation, I dont know about phase I.

Liver Bilirubin and alt/ast are always worthwhile tests for anyone on the lyme forum. When taking new supplements which might effect liver function or any med that effects liver (ABX), do these tests.
Posted 2/11/2018 3:18 AM (GMT 0)

astroman said...
dacarte-

I also read some other places mentioning egcg being paired with fish oil. Fish oil comes in many "purities" / strengths. Fish oil / omega 3 question- do you know what EPA and BPA amounts are in the fish oil product you use, and is it void of the "fishy burps"? thanks

Tried several fishy burp types LOL.

I don't get fishy burps.

It says on the label out of 600mgs, 320 is EPA and 200 is DHA. I don't know where the other 80mgs went lol. It doesn't say.
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