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Armin Labs - Elispot can’t determine when we’re “done”

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Posted 12/5/2018 9:41 PM (GMT 0)
I’m hoping everyone can see this video even if you don’t subscribe to LLMD MR treatlyme book


https://www.treatlyme.net/guide/elispot-lyme-test-forcast-end-of-treatment

Some llmd’s are using this test to determine when patients are done with treatment.

LLMD MR says it can’t be used.
He says the test is based on “T cells” seeing the bacteria but it is often hiding in tissue. (15% of the time)
Posted 12/6/2018 5:10 AM (GMT 0)
Isnt this the same as iSPOT.........?

I've had the iSPOT test. Another problem is if your T cell volume is low, this test doesn't work right, it will say this in the report.

Anyone reading this should know a low cd57 means low T cells. So if you have low cd57 (which can happen from lyme), the iSPOT and prob this Elispot wont work correctly.................$400 down the drain (again).
Posted 12/6/2018 6:08 AM (GMT 0)
Armin Labs is a good lab for testing to diagnose Lyme. It’s the lab that is mostly used in Europe and some Drs in my province use it too.

But some llmd’s and “regular” Drs in my province are using it to see if treatment is “done”

But as LLMD MR points out - it can’t be used for that.

Igenex now has their version of the Elispot too
Posted 12/6/2018 6:48 AM (GMT 0)
This test is nothing new. Its the same as the iSPOT offered years ago by Pharmasan Labs in Osceola, WI., closed up now. (The owner did or might have to do time in prison for poor business practice.) This was a popular regional test in Wisconsin and Minnesota for years until proven to be..........not so good.

As I mentioned, If your CD57 is low (probably is if you have or had lyme), then this T cell test is a waste of money, as the test wont work, positive about this. And these Drs pushing it are wasting your money. In some ways, Its just a cd57 test using live lyme culture. Sad part is, I understand this better than many LLMD's.

http://www.pharmasan.com

"Offers nationwide testing services specializing in Neuro-Endo-Immune assessments that can be utilized to quantitatively assess and address imbalances involved as the main contributors to common clinical conditions. Specialty tests include urinary neurotransmitters, salivary hormones, mitochondrial superoxide, Natural Killer (NK) cells, cytokines, lymphocyte subset analysis, MELISA® metal allergy, basophil activation, and iSpot Lyme T-cell ELISPOT technology testing services."
Posted 12/6/2018 7:29 AM (GMT 0)
Yes , Armin Labs have been using these tests for many years now....so not a new test. But it does seem to be a good diagnostic test...and I think that's why Igenex has added the new tests to their selection.
We do see quite a few on this forum who use it and do test positive.

But, what LLMD MR was pointing out is that some LLMD's are using this test to gauge remission....and he is pointing out that it can not be used for that...and why.

There are a few Docs here in BC who think it can be used for that...unfortunately - they don't 'get it'.

Here's what is on the Igenex website:


Lyme IGX Spot

The Lyme IGXSpot is an Enzyme-Linked ImmunoSpot (ELISPOT) assay that detects human T cells reactive to B. burgdorferi specific antigens in vitro. ELISPOT is a widely used method for detecting and monitoring cellular immune responses to specific antigens.

The Lyme IGX Spot test:

1. Detects specific T-cell responses soon after B. burgdorferi infection, when antibodies to the organisms are not detectable or late in the disease, when the levels of antibodies are very low.

2. When combined with Lyme ImmunoBlot tests, information on the full spectrum of patient’s immune response to infection and stage of disease is obtained.

3. Is especially useful for seronegative patients.
Posted 12/6/2018 7:52 AM (GMT 0)
This is true. I was lucky enough to also do cd57 test even if my mind was so inflamed that this knowledge could not have.
Posted 12/6/2018 4:09 PM (GMT 0)
"Yes , Armin Labs have been using these tests for many years now....so not a new test. But it does seem to be a good diagnostic test"............

Diagnostic wise, its not much better than assumptions made with cd-57, at three times the cost. We know that lyme can cause T cell damage and low volumes, and this seems to be permanent in some people even after they feel well, just like a low cd57.

So yes its interesting and entertaining like the cd-57, also cannot 100% point to lyme, and (like cd-57), its just another T cell function/dysfunction test.

IF your T cells still are in high numbers and they work correctly, then you could save money and just use the cd57 test.

The "hype" from this test dwindled in the north central states a while ago, so I'm surprised its gaining popularity in other places out west.
Posted 12/6/2018 5:54 PM (GMT 0)
I’m not sure Astroman why it’s popular in my province.

We do see quite a few forum members use it and get positive results.

And the fact that Igenex (a lab that specializes in tickborne disease testing) has added it recently - makes me think it’s a decent test.

We do see a lot of false negatives with the WB as well.
Posted 12/6/2018 6:06 PM (GMT 0)
Astroman - the cd57 isn’t specific to lyme though - so that isn’t a lyme test. cd57 alone can’t be used to diagnose Lyme.

The Igenex tests are lyme specific tests.
So here’s the info from Igenex site explaining how it works;



IGeneX’s new Lyme ImmunoBlot and the TBRF ImmunoBlot tests are the first, most inclusive and specific serologic tests for Lyme disease and TBRF,” said Dr. Jyotsna Shah, President and CEO of IGeneX. “These tests, when combined with Lyme IgX spot and PCR, cover the full spectrum of the disease.”

Lyme ImmunoBlots IgM and IgG

Although IGeneX Lyme Western blot prepared from Borrelia burgdorferi strains B31 and 297 is one of the most sensitive tests, it does not detect antibodies to all the B. burgdorferi sensu lato antigens. To develop all-inclusive Western blots would be very expensive and impractical. Therefore, IGeneX has developed a Lyme ImmunoBlot that is very specific and inclusive of most species of B. burgdorferi sensu lato for clinical use with the following advantages over a Western blot:

The specificity of the ImmunoBlot is 98.0% for IgM and 98.7% for IgG. This is higher than the traditional Western Blot.
The 31kDa Epitope confirmation test will not be required on patient samples tested by Lyme ImmunoBlots.
The sensitivity of the Lyme Immunoblot is 90.9% with well-defined samples.
The ImmunoBlot has better sensitivity compared to the current Western Blot, because it t is designed to detect antibodies to major burgdorferi sensu lato specific antigens from North America and European strains as listed below:
B. burgdorferi B31
B. burgdorferi 297
B. californiensis
B. mayonii
B. afzelii
B. garinii
B. spielmanii
B. valaisiana


TBRF ImmunoBlots IgM and IgG

The TBRF ImmunoBlot is designed to detect antibodies to specific antigens of TBRF Borrelia in human serum. It detects antibodies to B. hermsii, B. miyamotoi, B. turicatae and B. coriaceae. Based on in-house studies these blots detect antibodies to North American, European and Australian strains of TBRF Borrelia in patient serum samples. The specificity of the TBRF ImmunoBlot is 94% and 98% for IgM and IgG respectively.

Lyme IGX Spot

The Lyme IGXSpot is an Enzyme-Linked ImmunoSpot (ELISPOT) assay that detects human T cells reactive to B. burgdorferi-specific antigens in vitro. ELISPOT is a widely used method for detecting and monitoring cellular immune responses to specific antigens.

The Lyme IGX Spot test:

Detects specific T-cell responses soon after B. burgdorferi infection, when antibodies to the organisms are not detectable or late in the disease, when the levels of antibodies are very low.
When combined with Lyme ImmunoBlot tests, information on the full spectrum of patient’s immune response to infection and stage of disease is obtained.
Is especially useful for seronegative patients.
Posted 12/6/2018 6:31 PM (GMT 0)
Girlie-

I am talking about Ispot or Elilispot type of test here not the other Igenix antibody tests.

I understand what your mentioning (remember Ive done a lot of T cell testing ect.). I did the ISpot to and read about it years ago, its far from perfect and canot 100% be accurate with lyme in all people. I face to face talked with a rep from the iSpot lab four years ago.

Im not sure you understood what I was trying to explane so let me simplify more directly:

This is the part some people dont "get" about Ellispot (or iSpot):

This type of test needs your body to have a specific T cell level to work correctly. IF you have low T cells from whatever reason, this test will not work and THEY even tell you this in the report as in my case. That is also exactly what my test report said. It was inconclusive and had a note stating that lyme is known to alter and lower both T cell numbers/levels/volumes and function - but my result test can not prove it.

Again, more test results that said possibly lyme but not provable even though it cost me $400.

My reference to cd57 is that this somewhat tells T cell level. So my personal experience shows that if someone did cd57 first and found it to be low from UNPROVEN causes/ reasons, then ellispot or iSpot test most likey will not work, as in the test cannot be completed....(but they made you pay ahead of time so your out $400).

As Ive posted in the past, It is known that my T cells are low when tested multiple times at conventional labs to, so this all makes sense.

I hope this makes sense now. ? yes/no? Im not the best word smith.

"especially useful" (Igenix) and accurate are not the same. High $ tests should be accurate.

Post Edited (astroman) : 12/6/2018 11:41:41 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/6/2018 7:14 PM (GMT 0)
The IGXSpot is an Elispot....take a look at my previous post.
Posted 12/6/2018 7:59 PM (GMT 0)
Just to be clear - these tests do have false negatives, too...as do the WB tests - they rely on the immune function of the individual to 'mount' a response...
We are in agreement with that....

But, the point was that some LLMD's are using this test to gauge when treatment is 'done'.
Posted 12/6/2018 8:17 PM (GMT 0)
"The IGXSpot is an Elispot...."

- yes, I know that- Im referring to all versions and lab names of this type of test.

"But, the point was that some LLMD's are using this test to gauge when treatment is 'done'."

They were trying that with the old CD57 too, another past similar use to this. I just thought I'd add some more info about this test so individuals wont get so surprised if it doesn't work, as in "inconclusive". It is 400 bucks after all (the one I did was).

On the bright side, this and cd57 is what let me to further investigate my immune and T cells with "deeper" tests..
Posted 12/7/2018 1:40 AM (GMT 0)
A note on Armin: I have been in touch with one Lyme Mom for over nine years now as she has struggled and struggled some more to get her child better. She finally (after so much trauma, money etc, you know the story) got a Canadian hospital to admit her child and do IV abx. Long story short: Sent to Armin, came back positive for a Euro borrelia strain that is much more difficult to treat. (I am not certain which test they did though.) This after years of treatment and testing. I am thinking what we've been thinking for a long time: these infections are not stationary. And borrelia are morphing rapidly and some are more virulent than others. This child had never been to Europe. Thank god my friend's daughter is being treated and making progress.
Posted 12/7/2018 3:49 AM (GMT 0)
That’s great she managed to get treatment in Canada

Is she getting long term treatment?

There is a LL ID dr - in Alberta - with a long wait list - I heard he’s not adding anyone to the list now.
I think his last name starts with H.
Posted 12/7/2018 10:51 PM (GMT 0)
Yes, long term tx. Nothing short of miraculous; of course if they'd treated her when she was four or five they would not have had to spend millions on tx now. She has been on IV ceftriaxone for at least three months in hospital, with a few breaks home on weekends. They pulled in a neuro who is following due to the brain inflammation. I have not communicated with her in a few weeks, time to catch up. Of course she had to take the child to the US several times. I know the Dr. you refer to, yes he had to close his wait list. He is great, posts occasionally.
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