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Abbreviated form of Pulsing?

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Posted 3/8/2019 12:35 AM (GMT 0)
Good evening all,

Are any of you who are pulsing antibiotics using a protocol that is tailored to your individual response rather than a standard protocol such as two weeks on and one week off? I am contemplating giving pulsing a try but know that my symptoms sharply increase and begin to spread to new areas of my body (within 12 hours) simply by missing for example my am dose of amoxicillin. When I take my next dose of the amoxicillin I herx for the next two days. So I am wondering if it's possible to do an abbreviated pulsing protocol that would allow the bacteria 12 hours to come out of hiding and then I could hit them with my usual dose of amoxicillin. I am thinking that perhaps in time, I could increase the time between doses for example one day on and one day off. All thoughts are welcomed and appreciated. Thanks
Posted 3/8/2019 1:36 AM (GMT 0)
“So I am wondering if it's possible to do an abbreviated pulsing protocol that would allow the bacteria 12 hours to come out of hiding and then I could hit them with my usual dose of amoxicillin. “

Isn’t that pretty much the standard no pulse protocol?

You take meds at 8:00 am and then 12 hours later at 8;00 pm you take your evening dose.
Then 12 hours later (8;00 am) you take your morning dose.

I must not be understanding what you mean
Posted 3/8/2019 1:46 AM (GMT 0)
Actually what I mean is that I would skip my am dose and then take it 12 hours later rather than taking the amoxicillin every 12 hours. There would be a 24 hour gap and then I would get back on it, herx for a couple days and then start the same process over. The goal would be to increase the time between dosing so instead of having a 24 hour period with no amoxicillin, it would jump to 36 hours off, get back on it, herx and then repeat the process. I hope that makes more sense but please let me clarify if you have questions.
Posted 3/8/2019 1:55 AM (GMT 0)
I've never taken amoxicillin and don't know much about it or the dynamics it has within the body. Might be worth googling the subject, ie pulsing amoxicillin lyme or something like that. See if anyone else has used a similar pulse strategy that you are suggesting, although since you'd still be taking the meds everyday it wouldn't necessarily be considered a pulse right? Are you comboing that med with anything else? Could consider keeping the amoxicillin as is (since it seems to hold symptoms at bay) and pulsing a couple other meds on top of it?
Posted 3/8/2019 1:55 AM (GMT 0)
Okay - so you’re taking a 24 hour break between doses.

I don’t know how “sound” that is... if it would work.... or not.

I wouldn’t do it with just one antibiotic though - you need to pair something with it.
Posted 3/8/2019 2:12 AM (GMT 0)
I am also taking liposomal Ceftriaxone, Clarithromycin, and atovaquone. As I understand it, people do not pulse the meds they are using for co infections, only for the Lyme. Problem is that whenever I remove any of the meds my symptoms increase and spread to new areas of my body. I see that Dr H. recommends amoxicillin, a macrolide and a cephalosporin for Lyme. I suppose in theory I could begin pulsing with anyone of these three? Also taking stevia, grapefruit seed extract and liposomal biocidin as well as a bunch of supplements. I am just thinking because my symptoms increase so quickly (within 24 hours) it might make sense to tailor the pulsing protocol based on how the bacteria are responding rather than following a pulsing protocol that seems arbitrary. I understand that borrelia takes a long time to replicate so I am wondering if the increase in symptoms is actually from my Bart or babesia infections rather than the Lyme. If this is this case then from what I have read I am not suppose to pulse the meds that are hitting the coinfections. Sound accurate?

Post Edited (Aurora2013) : 3/7/2019 7:16:27 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 3/8/2019 3:37 AM (GMT 0)
Re:pulsing meds for coinfections.


As a patient of the J clinic, I pulse my meds.

What does your LLMD think about your pulse method?
Posted 3/8/2019 8:34 AM (GMT 0)
Yes I tried pulsing - good stuff. I think what we are experiencing at the end of the pulse cycle is the lost of inflammatory blockade from antibiotic and further immune stimulation effect out of dead bacteria products like toxins plus a solid confirmation that antibiotic really works and is not just another palliative. And toxins are not necessary an evil thing - like LPS(endotoxin)/mercury were used to treat syphilis some years ago - not sure about the present days.

One can check their blood work both on abx-on and abx-off days and hopefully notice some interesting changes like more monocytes/lymphocytes on abx-off days.

Everybody keep in mind that bacteria is also under constant attack from immune system itself and we really do not know what exactly abxs are doing in vivo - are they helping immune system to do its job or the main driving force.

Also I have a theory that some abx like ribosome inhibitors(tetra and macrolide classes) help to restore the sensitivity of bacteria to our own body antimicrobial proteins(AMP) which are more advanced that abx while having the same target 70s ribosome - in other words while trying to adapt to antibiotics bacteria looses its resistance to the body's AMPs.

Post Edited (Dmitry) : 3/8/2019 1:44:21 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 3/8/2019 3:14 PM (GMT 0)
Girlie,

It’s just an idea that I have and have not yet discussed with my llmd. I plan on discussing at our next meeting. I am wondering how the pulsing protocols that exist are developed and if the number of days on meds vs. days off is reflective of conclusions drawn from studies or simply through llmd’s observations of how their patients have responded.
Posted 3/8/2019 3:22 PM (GMT 0)
Dmitry,

What did your pulsing protocol look like? How many days on vs. off? How did your llmd decide this?

Interestingly, I have noticed that my wbc actually increases when I am on four antibiotics rather than three.
I agree with you though that we really do not know how much the antibiotics are helping with killing bacteria or how much of our immune system is sharing the load.
Posted 3/8/2019 4:03 PM (GMT 0)

Aurora2013 said...
Girlie,

It’s just an idea that I have and have not yet discussed with my llmd. I plan on discussing at our next meeting. I am wondering how the pulsing protocols that exist are developed and if the number of days on meds vs. days off is reflective of conclusions drawn from studies or simply through llmd’s observations of how their patients have responded.

Some llmd’s base the pulsing on lifecycle of lyme but I’m not sure how effective it would be since were also dealing with bart and Babs... etc.

My LLMD has done the pulsing for many years - and I would think his schedule is in-part based on results his patients get plus the research/studies.
Posted 3/8/2019 4:04 PM (GMT 0)
My wbc count is low when on the abx and goes up after being off them for awhile.
Posted 3/8/2019 4:15 PM (GMT 0)
That makes sense to me Girlie. Thank you for the feedback. For me the hard part is teasing out which infection(s) (borrelia, Bart, Babs) are driving my symptoms as my symptoms increase and spread regardless of which med I decide to skip. A couple years ago I was trying to wean off of my antibiotics and the only one that I could eliminate and not have and increase in symptoms was bactrim. I am pretty sure Dr. H uses bactrim for Bart (although I dont have his book in front of me) so maybe Bart really isn’t an issue anymore and it’s simply the lyme and Babs. As with most things, there are unfortunately more questions than answers at this time. Thanks again.
Posted 3/8/2019 4:21 PM (GMT 0)
My LLMD likes Bactrim - it’s one that seems to hit the three “big” infections to some degree (lyme, bart, Babs)
But I had trouble taking it...
Posted 3/8/2019 4:27 PM (GMT 0)
Interesting. I was on bactrim for a good two years ( always with several other antibiotics). I never had issues tolerating it but was happy to be able to drop it when I did. As you well know, it becomes tiring taking all these meds so I feel fortunate that I could at least drop it without any increase in symptoms. Would like to be able to drop liposomal ceftriaxone due to the out of pocket cost per month but it really has done an amazing job with minimizing my symptoms.
Posted 3/8/2019 5:01 PM (GMT 0)
I developed some sporadic lesions when i first went on the Bactrim.

So, I stopped it...and tried again later on...and got them again.

The NP thought they weren't anything serious...but I had seen the SJS photos...and I was freaked out...
Posted 3/8/2019 5:30 PM (GMT 0)
> What did your pulsing protocol look like? How many days on vs. off?

I pulsed 100mg mino every 2 days(rarerly every 3) on/off for more than a year and its actually more difficult than taking this abx every day. Also, I'am using Olmesartan drug(mpkb.org).

My perception is: on first day mino kills bacteria by itself, on second what is left from mino and AMP(antimicrobial peptides expressed by immune cells) kill and on third day AMPs kill. Depending on where the immune system is(its competence) one can feel worse either on 1 day(immune system is weak(suppressed) - not enough AMPs), 2 day(balance between abx and AMP in anti microbial effects) or 3-rd day(AMPs at full force). Also my own wishful thinking is that mino prevents resistance to AMPs and vice versa(since they both target the same 70s ribisome every bacteria has).

more info about AMPs are over here:

Antimicrobial peptides targeting bacterial ribosome
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4662452/

Structures of proline-rich peptides bound to the ribosome reveal a common mechanism of protein synthesis inhibition
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4797290/
Posted 3/8/2019 5:55 PM (GMT 0)
Girlie, sounds like you didn’t have much of a choice. I have been fortunate overall in that I have been able to tolerate most of the meds that I have been on. People often ask how it has impacted my stomach and strangely enough my stomach has never been better. This may have something to do with following Dr Burrascano’s diet suggestions as well as taking quality probiotics.
Posted 3/8/2019 6:13 PM (GMT 0)
Ive been fortunate as well re: tolerating the abx. Bactrim is the only one so far that I didn't want to take....mostly due to my googling and seeing the SJS photos....

(Well, actually I won't take the fluoroquinolones either - not because of a reaction...but because of the multi black box warnings)

I have had other rashes show up during treatment but wasn't on the Bactrim at the time...and these ones were different...
Posted 3/8/2019 8:29 PM (GMT 0)
Dmitry, thank you for the links. I will check them out later on today. I've been on long term antibiotics for a long time and I see no light at the end of the tunnel unless I give my immune system the chance to share some of the load.

My sense based on my experiences is that too long of a break will allow the bacteria to come out of hiding and hit new areas of the body but by not taking breaks I am forcing the bacteria into places that are difficult for the antibiotics to reach. That's why I am considering an abbreviated pulsing protocol which will be based on my increase in symptoms rather than adhering to a protocol that allows the bacteria to grow and spread. Hope that makes sense. It's just an idea that I am pondering.
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