Keto thread

jb1994 said...
confusing ketosis with ketoacidosis. Major fail....Second major fail.

There is a lot of those confusing things in the Science/Medicine world.

• Lyme disease is not scurvy and has nothing to do with the citrus fruit Limes.
  
• Hydralazine (a vasodilator to treat high blood pressure) is not the same as Hydroxyzine (an antihistamine used to treat anxiety).
  
• a huge number of confusing pharmaceutical names that don't really tell you what the drug is or what it does, so many that I can't name them all, but someone did, and their mechanisms of action, according to the literature still "are not well understood"...

Post Edited (borrelioburgdorferii) : 5/11/2019 11:13:59 PM (GMT-6)

Lol BB if I had a list of all the drugs I've been put on "just to see if they'll work". I remember a quote from SNL the other week, they found a new use for a drug to treat diabetes or something and Michael Che said something like "In other words, 'Oh, so THAT's what it does.'"

I wish I could eat like a horse and lose! I only have 5 pounds I want to lose and I'd gladly wait a month to lose it if I could eat everything I wanted lol. But I can still eat a decent amount on this diet and maintain which is a plus. I really hope I don't slide back into having carbs. Especially gluten. I didn't realize I was being affected by it until I removed it.

Neutrophils are involved in inflammation and not necessarily a good thing. less inflammation = less neutrophils

β-Hydroxybutyrate Deactivates Neutrophil NLRP3 Inflammasome to Relieve Gout Flares
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211124717301699?via%3Dihub

Aging and lipotoxicity are two major risk factors for gout that are linked by the activation of the NLRP3 inflammasome. Neutrophil-mediated production of interleukin-1β (IL-1β) drives gouty flares that cause joint destruction, intense pain, and fever. However, metabolites that impact neutrophil inflammasome remain unknown. Here, we identified that ketogenic diet(KD) increases β-hydroxybutyrate (BHB) and alleviates urate crystal-induced gout without impairing immune defense against bacterial infection. BHB inhibited NLRP3 inflammasome in S100A9 fibril-primed and urate crystal-activated macrophages, which serve to recruit inflammatory neutrophils in joints. Consistent with reduced gouty flares in rats fed a ketogenic diet, BHB blocked IL-1β in neutrophils in a NLRP3-dependent manner in mice and humans irrespective of age. Mechanistically, BHB inhibited the NLRP3 inflammasome in neutrophils by reducing priming and assembly steps. Collectively, our studies show that BHB, a known alternate metabolic fuel, is also an anti-inflammatory molecule that may serve as a treatment for gout.

Hyperglycemia Impairs Neutrophil Mobilization Leading to Enhanced Metastatic Seeding
https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/pdf/S2211-12471731630-3.pdf

Underlying diabetes is a poor prognostic factor for cancer patients. Fainsod-Levi et al. demonstrate that underlying hyperglycemia increases metastatic spread. Hyperglycemia impairs G-CSF secretion, thereby hindering the mobilization of antitumor neutrophils. Poor neutrophil mobilization in hyperglycemia leads to increased survival of disseminated tumor cells and consequently increasing the metastatic burden.

I don't follow a ketogenic diet (or, any other named diet), so I'm hardly an expert on the matter. But, I have been following both ketogenic and carnivore enthusiasts with great interest for a while. Some of the stories are compelling, for sure. But, so were the stories of many other diets I've studied -- and, which have seduced me.

Anyway, I wanted to mention that I'm hearing more ketogenic diet advocates state that the diet should be cyclical. So, people should cycle in-and-out of ketosis. Ketosis, they assert, is supposed to be used as a tool to achieve a certain goal, but not to be used chronically.

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule. If a person is experiencing seizures or other serious medical conditions for which other therapies are unsuccessful, then, obviously, if a ketogenic diet helps, that's better than suffering repetitive, ongoing seizures.

But, many people (I'm guilty, too) tend to think "If a little of that is good, then a lot of it must be better!" We all know this isn't always the case.

Perhaps ketosis will go down in history as "the" way for everyone to eat, but I'm doubtful. Time will tell.

Just an update. I'v been on this diet four weeks now and my skin has stopped breaking out and I'm able to walk a lot further. I was only walking a block a day and around the store. Now I can walk a mile at a time and just over 2 miles a day. So if you're open to trying anything you can to get better I'd suggest giving keto a shot for at least a month minimum.

Haha I'm okay with foul language. I haven't but I'll look them up right now.

edit: haha looks like he has some beef with vegans (no pun intended) and particularly someone named Vegan Gains. I'm going to watch an interview video with someone named Keto Mechanic and report back.

Post Edited (jb1994) : 5/25/2019 8:06:47 PM (GMT-6)

Yeah seems like he argues for carnivore/very low carb and against plants/any carbs because they're poisonous and inflammatory. Pretty extremist. I dunno, some plants are okay I think. I do my best not to think in terms of extremes anymore. He does like calling people idiots though lol.

Thanks for taking a look at some of what Bart had to say. He *seems* to have some good information to share, when it comes to evaluating studies, discussing biochemical pathways, mechanisms of action, and so forth. However, because I'm not educated in anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, etc., I can't validate his assertions. But, as a layperson, it all sounds plausible. Bart has stated he was in academia for around 20 years and is a scientist, researcher, and lecturer. He's named his three advanced degrees, though, at the moment, I don't recall them.

As you and I have previously discussed in passing, any plan that goes to an extreme -- whether it's diet, exercise, or anything else -- should be a red flag. I'm just not convinced that something is all good or all bad...for everyone...in any amount...in every situation...all the time. Whether it's gluten, grains, legumes, nuts, seeds, nightshades, FODMAPS, dairy, fat, "carbs," or whatever.

( It was all I could do to not respond to the other thread about diet where white potatoes are being discussed. haha Perhaps not everything is good or bad...maybe everything is good AND bad, depending on the person and their specific situation, environment, and biochemistry. I know white rice and white potatoes are included on Paul and Shou-Ching Jaminet's "Perfect Health Diet," because of the resistant starch. )

The "diet" that makes the most sense to me is the "Plant Paleo" diet, as described by Angelo Coppola in his (now-defunct) "Latest in Paleo" podcast. I listened to every episode of that show, as well as his first podcast "This Week in Paleo." It was neat to be on the journey with him, virtually, and observe his evolution of thought. However, as I previously alluded, every eating plan will likely require some customization and ongoing reevaluation.

Considering you knew who Matt Stone was, when I first mentioned him, I've felt you and I probably have some similar experiences, attitudes, and opinions, when it comes to diet and health. My current position is something along the lines of: "Maybe, but it's probably wrong on some level." I alternate between that and: "Who cares? No one gets out alive, anyway."

Georgia Hunter said...
I usually stay away from threads like this, but there is a mountain of evidence behind plant based eating. I'm not saying keto won't help some people because it will. If you are overloaded with yeast and gram negative anaerobes, it will help. That is not what is best for long term survival, but it will help.

As I think you know, based on our exchanges on this forum and over e-mail, I try to maintain an open mind about most things -- including diet. It was while following a Primal/Paleo/Low-Carb diet that I started reading information from Joel Fuhrman, Pam Popper, Caldwell Esselstyn, T. Colin Campbell, Jeff Novick, Alan Goldhamer, Michael Klaper, etc. My concern was getting too blinded by one dogma and missing contradictory information. The more I looked, though, it seemed that contradictory information was all I found.

Between the "animal-based" and "plant-based" camps, I've listened to thousands (literally) of podcasts, watched many hundreds of videos, read hundreds of articles, and listened to quite a few audio books. I've had one-on-one consultations, e-mail exchanges, and telephone calls with some of the popular doctors who are authors, speakers, and whom appear in popular health-related movies. This has been over the past ten years. Even after all of that, I have no idea who is right.

Like you, all the people in those two aforementioned groups are well-educated and highly-intelligent -- far more than I am, for sure. If even they can't agree, then I have no hope. So, all I can do is apply different strategies and see what happens. In some cases, what helps is opposite of what some "expert" or "study" says. So, at that point, I have to decide how to proceed: Do I want to listen to my body or listen to my mind? Many times, I've ignored my body's feedback and followed what I've been told is best -- with worsening results.

During a written exchange with one of the popular and famous plant-based doctors, I posed the question: "What should one do, when what's 'supposed' to work doesn't actually work?" Further, I asked the same person: "What conclusion should one draw, when following the opposite advice leads to symptom resolution, improved biomarkers, better sleep, less digestive distress, more energy, etc.?" Finally, I asked: "At what point will such 'anecdotal' evidence be considered valid? One year? Ten years? Twenty years? How long is long enough?" At that point, the person went silent and no longer responded.

I'm not an author, lecturer, or film star, like some of the aforementioned people, so I have no financial stake in advocating one agenda over another. All I care about is feeling better.

Whereas I previously felt comfortable offering folks some general dietary advice, I now do my best to avoid doing so, because I'm not so sure there are many things that are irrefutable and apply to everyone all the time. Perhaps the best I could offer is: Drink some water each day. Even then, I can't advise what type or how much.

Feel free to comment and/or correct, as appropriate. I acknowledge that I'm not the smartest person in the conversation and my views are simply opinions based on my own experience.

Hey, Georgia:

A very nuanced and insightful reply. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I always appreciate your perspectives.

Georgia Hunter said...
"...most people don't have medical and scientific backgrounds to understand all the technical terms and how to approach each problem."

This is, obviously, true for me. It often frustrates me, and...for a few minutes...I consider maybe I could/should go back to school and pursue some additional education on the subject. But, then I come to my senses. Perhaps if I were younger and felt better.

Finally, when you mention a "plant-based" diet, I believe you mean something along the lines of what Dr. Joel Fuhrman promotes, right? That is, he allows (though doesn't advocate for) eating animal products up to twice weekly and in small amounts.

Dr. Pam Popper has a similar view (allowing, not promoting, animal foods), but I think she's more grain-/starch-based, whereas Dr. Fuhrman is not. Or, I think that's how he used to be. I believe both of them recommend avoiding all forms of dairy.

Best wishes,
Dude
.

Post Edited (The Dude Abides) : 5/27/2019 10:38:29 PM (GMT-6)

Dmitry said...
On a distance(5..10 years) keto will make more harm than good(eventual relapse). First thing on keto is that carb tolerance is lost(too much inflammation), then proteins tolerance is lost too, people end up with awkward diet like keto vegatarian before their final relapse and death.

Can you link research on this? I've failed to search for negative effects of keto so I suppose I shall start here. I'm just scared to death of antibiotics

The Dude Abides said...
Hey, Georgia:
A very nuanced and insightful reply. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I always appreciate your perspectives.
quote="Georgia Hunter"]"...most people don't have medical and scientific backgrounds to understand all the technical terms and how to approach each problem."

This is, obviously, true for me. It often frustrates me, and...for a few minutes...I consider maybe I could/should go back to school and pursue some additional education on the subject. But, then I come to my senses. Perhaps if I were younger and felt better.
inally, when you mention a "plant-based" diet, I believe you mean something along the lines of what Dr. Joel Fuhrman promotes, right? That is, he allows (though doesn't advocate for) eating animal products up to twice weekly and in small amounts.
Dr. Pam Popper has a similar view (allowing, not promoting, animal foods), but I think she's more grain-/starch-based, whereas Dr. Fuhrman is not. Or, I think that's how he used to be. I believe both of them recommend avoiding all forms of dairy.
Best wishes,
Dude
.

I eat meat about once or twice a week, but I am also very active. I believe we became the most dominant force on this planet because we could eat meat when no other food was available. Well, that and walking upright which exposed our sexual areas which eventually led to being able to become pregnant once a month. That's another topic. I am not opposed to small portions of animal protein periodically, just not every day. The nitrogen load becomes a problem as does the gram negative anaerobes. But I can understand doing what one has to do.