Is there any way to get rid of bartonella without going crazy doing so?

The amount you take isn’t what determines if it’s working.
If you’re herxing on 5 drops twice daily - then it’s working.

You can increase it down the road once you’re not herxing anymore.

It’s not like abx where there’s a specific dosage to adhere to.

Stay at the 3 drops for a few weeks and then go up 1 drop ... if it’s ok - then add another 1 drop to your second dose.

jb,

You mentioned barely sleeping and weight gain as the results of taking houttuynia.

These are not symptoms I associate with a bartonella herx. Has the houttutnia caused any others symptoms that you are referring to as a herx?

I’m wondering if you’re herxing or perhaps having an MCAS reaction. Is it in tincture form? The alcohol in tinctures can cause histamine issues for some people.

buhner recommends isatis, houttyunia and alchornea combination to kill bart if you in fact want to kill it versus strengthening your body to fend for itself.

you're better having 2 drops of each versus 6 drops of one herb for synergistic reasons.

and bart is the hardest pathogen to get rid of by far. i've had it almost 5 years and i've hit it with enough abx to kill a stable of horses yet its flourishing inside me as evidenced by what's showing up in my blood under a microscope.

low and slow is the way to attack this little bugger.

I could not tolerate Houttuynia or alchornea at all without taking all the support herbs Buhner recommends. The inflammation was unbearable. Die-off itself can cause a histamine reaction. For me, that in turn causes lots of inflammation. I had swollen eyes, ankles, pounding head pain, low grade fever, malaise, etc. I had to get my dose of J. knotweed, hawthorne, sida, red root, cordyceps, and skullcap established before starting to kill stuff off. Took vitamin E, milk thistle, selenium, and CoQ as well. It has been a long slow process getting on this stuff, but things are improving.
I realize you are a veteran member, but thought it was worth asking, are you taking anything to control inflammation? I love J. knotweed and it was the first thing I started when I tolerated almost nothing. You are probably on all this stuff.

Post Edited (Gladioli66) : 9/5/2019 3:09:43 PM (GMT-6)

JK's main job is endothelial cell protection, in both Lyme and Bartonella. Additional benefits are anti-inflammatory and neuroprotective properties among other things. But it's main job is to deny the bacteria a home in your endothelial cells.

Upatnite said...
Thank you for that response. So do people herx with JK? Or is it something you start at full dose?

Yes. No, start around 1/4 dose or less.

Buhner emphasizes JK’s function of protecting endothelial cells and its anti-inflammatory properties. I, for one, have never had JK reduce my inflammation and I have been on it 2+ years. It INCREASED my inflammation, particularly in the joints. If you have bart, you may likely experience the same.

Don’t get me wrong. I think JK is very important based on what Buhner says about it, but it does have some anti-microbial properties. He makes it sound like it only supports and makes everything better. In reality, it can definitely cause a herx. Start low and increase slowly.

Not everyone herxes on it, but some do, so better forewarned.

Gladioli66 said...
I could not tolerate Houttuynia or alchornea at all without taking all the support herbs Buhner recommends. The inflammation was unbearable. Die-off itself can cause a histamine reaction. For me, that in turn causes lots of inflammation. I had swollen eyes, ankles, pounding head pain, low grade fever, malaise, etc. I had to get my dose of J. knotweed, hawthorne, sida, red root, cordyceps, and skullcap established before starting to kill stuff off. Took vitamin E, milk thistle, selenium, and CoQ as well. It has been a long slow process getting on this stuff, but things are improving.
I realize you are a veteran member, but thought it was worth asking, are you taking anything to control inflammation? I love J. knotweed and it was the first thing I started when I tolerated almost nothing. You are probably on all this stuff.

J knotweed is killing stuff off - it and Sida Acuta both have antimicrobial effects.

Well I can't even tolerate five drops a day. I will have to start from scratch at one I guess. And go up every week. Geez I've never reacted this strongly. Do I have to get up to the 30 drops 2x a day or can I cure it at a low dose? I remember seeing something on Buhner's site that you could cure the infections on a lower dose but not sure if it's true.

That's the thing Girlie - thinking how long it's been and how much longer it will take, it really gets me down. I mean at least I know what's wrong now but it just seems impossible when stuff like this happens (herxing on five drops of an herb).

WalkingByFaith - those two symptoms are the main symptoms I have left to deal with (along with joint pain). So whenever i react to something it's usually in those two forms. I am not that sensitive to alcohol as I have taken it in other tinctures but from my understanding Bart notoriously causes weight gain, and sleep disturbance has been a problem since the beginning of this whole Lyme nightmare.

Girlie - no I don't do that but usually I get hot. I don't notice a high heart rate.

Gladioli - that sounds like what's happening to me, the die-off is causing histamine to go crazy. I've tried curcumin for inflammation to no avail, right now I'm on CoQ10 and high dose B5/B6/B-complex plus quercetin for the histamine and some other things, doing some detox things like lymph support and coffee enemas. All these supplements add up though and I don't think I could possibly down any more or afford them. Milk thistle did not agree with me, it seemed to provoke some histamine reaction for some reason

Jova - not sure what you include in the conventional anbootics...

Most need to take Rifampin or Rifabutin (plus a second antibiotic) OR one of the Fluoroquinolones (plus a second antibiotic) BUT the fluoros come with fda black box warnings (yes plural) so many of us who do abx treatment won’t take them.

LLMD MR has treated Bart with a macrolide (Biaxin or Zithromax) plus a tetracycline (mino or doxy)
BUT that may not be effective for very long term infections ... bart is a nasty beast - I’m battling it hard and I swear it’s trying to kill me.

Btw - I found Rifampin to be no big deal to tolerate. Some say it’s hard on the liver but in my case my liver function tests were out of range when I was taking abx for just lyme for about 6 months. Took a few months break of abx to allow liver tests to normalize.
Went on bart treatment with Rifampin and liver function tests have been fine since.

I wonder if the bart was actually causing my liver to suffer...

Rikky - I know you're not symptom free now...but you did lose other symptoms, right?


And....are you concerned it will flourish again or are you going to continually take something to keep it 'at bay'?

JovaLyme said...
The more posts I read on here, the more I feel inclined to stay away from Bruhner's protocol.

It seems to be so hit and miss and all I ever read are horror stories regarding herxing with little or no improvement.

I'm not even slightly convinced that it works.

I’m not trying to persuade you to use Buhner’s protocol, but if your impression is based on the few who have commented on these current posts, you’re not seeing the whole picture. Search the forum. People ask about once a month if anybody has recovered using Buhner’s protocol. Some have, but they are mostly gone from the forum now.

What is important is that you choose a treatment path that you’re comfortable with and start somewhere. You can change directions at any time.

There is NO protocol that works as hoped for everyone. There are many possible reasons for this - some identifiable and others remain medical mysteries.

bluejellybean said...


Hi, I'm new here, and newly diagnosed. I've been treating for only a month using Buhner's herbs, and my primary symptoms right now are from Bartonella. I'm only up to 7 drops a day because I Herx so bad! I also take Japanese Knotweed Plus (has Cat's Claw and Cordyceps in it), C.S.A. (Sida Acuta, Cryptolepis, and Alchornea something) with the Houttuynia. I had to start taking Burbur Pinella detox (from Nutramedix) for my herxes too, in addition to all my other detoxing, and that seems to help.

My dr. also just started me on low-dose Naltrexone because I'm an emotional mess, supposedly from the Bart. That's supposed to help with herxes too, so I can increase the herbs more quickly.

I can't take antibiotics b/c I've had c diff colitis... twice. Which put me in the hospital. So I'm praying Buhner's protocol works.

Hello, bluejellybean! Welcome to the forum. Take it easy with the drops. You can take breaks or back off on the dosage until herxing is more manageable.

Do you do epsom salt baths or take any binders? These should help. There’s a lot of good reference information in the New to Lyme tab at the top if you haven’t checked it out yet.

Really sorry about the c. diff. That must have been awful. Just remember low and slow seems to work best. Pace yourself.