Buhner books scare me...

WBF - what is the treatment for CIRS? If it's not caused by mold?

Hi JovaLyme, I'm mostly 100% in agreement w/you from what I have gleaned learning about Buhner in the last 48 hours. I think your observations and assessment of his protocols having used them are spot on. However, I like how you still give him the benefit of the doubt and you don't make statements that are "my way or the highway-esque" as some seem to be inclined to. However, having this takes it toll, and it's toll on our patience and mindset. We sometimes tend to snap at people.

Because we are in such a precarious state of being, dealing with a chronic malady that is widely shunned, misunderstood, & treated with prejudice in the mainstream medical community, we have to have an open mind and treatments/protocols, herbs, & pharmaceuticals.

For the most part, I commend Buhner's protocol's simplicity, inexpensive-ness, and acceptance of chronic Lyme. But like Dr. Richard Horowitz said, "with Lyme, there is no silver bullet." Even the most well-versed doctors still don't have enough information.

I think in years to come, we may see more advances and research on the subject. Maybe even a growth industry for Lyme practitioners/specialists. One can only hope.

JovaLyme and ElizKA26,

The way the two of you joined around the same time and have gone back and forth with endless negative comments about herbal treatment for Lyme and about Stephen Buhner is making me very suspicious of your intentions and presence on this forum.

You sound like you are trying to discourage anyone reading your comments from treating with herbs (or maybe treating at all) and persuade people who know nothing about Buhner that his work is worthless at best and that he is something other than who he is.

Maybe you aren’t who you are presenting yourselves to be.

Opinions on Buhner are not against the forum rules.
I quickly read through the posts and don’t see anything that needs to be edited. (Unless I missed something - I am tired... lol)

WalkingbyFaith said...
JovaLyme and ElizKA26,

The way the two of you joined around the same time and have gone back and forth with endless negative comments about herbal treatment for Lyme and about Stephen Buhner is making me very suspicious of your intentions and presence on this forum.

You sound like you are trying to discourage anyone reading your comments from treating with herbs (or maybe treating at all) and persuade people who know nothing about Buhner that his work is worthless at best and that he is something other than who he is.

Maybe you aren’t who you are presenting yourselves to be.

I am sorry you feel this way, I am speaking as someone who's been fairly sick and tried the "only herbs route" and learned in the process, more about Buhner, and simply shared that I'm skeptical about him based on his background and a protocol that I tried similar to the one he's espousing.

"Endless negative comments about herbs." I feel that is inaccurate, as I'm only exclusively on herbs right now, due to another medical hurdle I have to go through that abx would exacerbate. When I am on abx, I also am not exclusively on those either, I take herbs with them. I don't feel like you can well without either.

I've learned that I've used herbs in his books that he recommends exclusively. They weren't enough to get well and have stuck me in a bad herx making it harder to function. So I decided to research him more, and learned that while he supports the chronic lyme community, he has not himself suffered from lyme. Nor does he possess any academic background or science credentials in science beyond anecdotal evidence. Which is a lot and nothing to sneeze at, but my logic tells me to also question. Especially, as someone with an advanced degree, someone who's taken biology, chemistry, anatomy/phys., and microbiology. I don't see this as negative, I see this as stating documented fact.

To PotsandPans, no harm done.

Post Edited (ElizKA26) : 9/11/2019 11:27:46 AM (GMT-6)

ElizKA26 said...


I am sorry you feel this way, I am speaking as someone who's been fairly sick and tried the "only herbs route" and learned in the process, more about Buhner, and simply shared that I'm skeptical about him based on his background and a protocol that I tried similar to the one he's espousing.

"Endless negative comments about herbs." I feel that is inaccurate, as I'm only exclusively on herbs right now, due to another medical hurdle I have to go through that abx would exacerbate. When I am on abx, I also am not exclusively on those either, I take herbs with them. I don't feel like you can well without either.

ElizKA26, here's my thoughts on solely using herbs, especially in the beginning stages of treating chronic lyme. If you're body is so far gone, meaning your immune system is so weakened by borrelia, coinfections, virues, and biofilms. How would ever one expect that just a 2 or 3 herb combo would get your body back to functioning state? And I suspect this can be a major problem using RSO oil for cancer. I mean I'm sure everyone's body is different and it's still possible, but for most, it's a very risky chance of just counting on herbs in the beginning. As I explained, problem isn't that herbs don't work, it's the matter of bioavailability, penetration, crossing the blood brain barrier. I've heard some herbalistis and people think that just by using the blushwood berry plant that they were going to cure their malignant tumors by just supplementing with it. People still don't understand the blushwood berry in supplement powder form just isn't the same thing as the actual drug EBC-46 drug which cured some patients malignant tumors within 24 hours. Just like how the supplemental form of artemisinin you can buy on Amazon isn't as strong as Artesunate and Coartem. And like some LLMDs are suggesting, using the supplemental form of artemisinin may be doing more damage than good, because it could be just making your babesia more resistant instead of just taking artesunate.

I get a lot of points some pro-herbalist members make on the forum, not everyone can afford a LLMD or longterm antibiotics. But honestly, if you're in the beginning stages and you feel you're so far gone, and even for some close to death, I think it's risky, very risky to just solely use herbs. And just counting on all your information coming from one person who hasn't graduated high school? That's risky as well...

Again, Buhner is very smart in his own right and made some very good discoverings on what herb works with what coinfection like Babesia. And for something like Babesia, there's not a lot of options out there that work very well on this parasite and it's starting to become very resistant to mepron/malarone. But counting on just a 2-3 herbs to eradicate an multisystemic infection when some patients may too far gone because of a weekened immune system sounds very dangerous to me and I think it's a bit dangerous that a lyme patient comes on here thinking that Stephen Buhner is hinting to you won't get better being on longterm antibiotics, this is absolute hogwash. Is he actually saying or suggesting that in his books Upatnite?

Upatnite said...
I stopped reading because I starting feeling like all the antibiotics I’m using are a big waste of time. I hate that. My daughter is much better because of them and her dr who uses both herbs and antibiotics has said he strongly feels my daughter needs the antibiotics and likely will keep her on them a long time.

I know we are all biased naturally when we find something that works. And when we find that thing... whatever it is... we want to spread the word and share what we’ve learned. I love that and it’s why I’m a member on this forum. But for god sake... can someone please tell me that antibiotics can and do help some people beat this thing. Any long term antibiotic users find success?

It's very scary to me, because we have visual proof right off the bat that antibiotics work just from the Under Our Skin Documentaries. All of them used antibiotics and they all got better, many reaching remission like Mandy Hughes. The one patient that seemed to be still in a very weakened and painful state was Dana Walsh, who seemed to be solely counting on alternative treatment from Dr. K and herbs.

And ya know from my own personal experience just recently, after I hammered my Babesia back with primaquine and coartem, then also artesunate and alinia as well, then followed up with csa formula/a-bab and iodine, but then Bartonella popped up. After trying to hammer Bartonella back with just herbs for 2 months, guess what, it wasn't working... Cats Claw, Teasel, Houttuynia and Sida Acuta weren't strong enough no matter what I did. Then I got on Bactrim and Omnicef, I got instant relief. Then added in Minocycline for my bartonella neurological symptoms, I got even more relief because Mino crosses the blood barrier.

Again, I think herbs have their use, but if you're just using them solely to treat this multisystemic chronic infection that's super hard to cure and you're counting solely on Stephen Buhner's advice, I think you're playing with fire, especially with something like Bartonella. And what did Buhner say, patients don't herx on Bartonella? Ummm, yeah he's definitely wrong on that...

I'm sure Buhner makes some fair points how overuse and longterm of antibiotics can wreak havoc on the microbiome and can be toxic to the body, liver and kidneys. As well as other points he probably makes... But as long as you're incorporating plenty of yogurt, kefir, and probiotics and detoxing properly with alpha lipoic, acid, plenty of water, baths, cbd oil... You'll be fine. They've also just discovered that fecal matter transplants have basically cured C-Diff if you're worried about that, problem is not all the darn hospitals have implemented into their system yet...

Anyways ElizKA26, I'm glad you tried his protocol, and was willing to share your opinion on the forum because as you see some don't want to hear other peoples opinions. It's just like some don't want to hear biological warfare side of Lyme... Everyone lives in their own little bubble and belief system... If you want to choose herbs and just faith, fine, that's you're right, but don't try to expect others to conform to your belief system and not share their opinions of Stephen Buhner and his protocol.

Again, I'll share my story once more... I recently went in to a more herbalistic osteopath doctor in Michigan to check on my vitamin levels, my thyroid levels... As I was having some new weird symptoms come out after doing iodine/csaformula/a-bab and primaquine/coartem months ago. The guy didn't even to know to check my thyroid antibodies as I was hinting to possible hyperthyroid/graves disease. Yet at the end of the appointment, he told be to go seek help at his church support group for my neurological symptoms. This was downright dangerous considering I had full blown bartonella and the symptoms were showing, I never had any of these symptoms before and explained this to him. And again, he also stated "you can keep going to every LLMD and unless you heal spiritually from the inside and keep going to a church, you'll never get better."

The guy is wrong, I am better than most. Was just out running 5 miles, despite still dealing with bartonella. I can't help but to comment on the common link between those who are religious and their sole belief in alternative/herbalistic treatment aspect, some of it is downright scary and dangerous. Very similar of the Jehovahs Witness belief system that claim once you get an illness, you just deal with it spiritually and not seek doctor or pharmaceutical treatment.

I'm a big believer that herbs work, but they have to be used in the right way in order for them to work. And if you ask any of the top LLMDs like Dr. H or Dr. J, they either recommend them with antibiotics or when you're taking a break off antibiotics for months if not a year or when you're trickling off herbs during the remission stage, not when you're full blown chronic with borrelia, babesia, bartonella and God knows what other virus or coinfection. Ya know, I still have a belief somewhat in faith and possibly a higher power, I just don't like how people use it to manipulate others into conforming to their way of treatment, fighting some war, whatever it may be... I've studied religion a good portion of my life from grade school to up until college and I know when people are using words from the bible and God to manipulate others into believing their own ideology. It truly sad when this happens...

Problems come in when both the medical industry lies about things for profit and power, as well as alternative medicine does to sell more books, herbs, and vitamins. It is what it is, they both do it.. Luckily under our current government we still "somewhat" have a freedom of choice to go with whatever treatment we like to. Problems come in when others remark that it's just an endless amount of negative comments and that our comments are making them suspicious, like we're out to wreck Stephen Buhner or something... I rarely make a post about this anymore unless there's others that are wondering and asking what they think of Buhner and his protocols, even Dr. Rawls.

WalkingbyFaith said...

The way the two of you joined around the same time and have gone back and forth with endless negative comments about herbal treatment for Lyme and about Stephen Buhner is making me very suspicious of your intentions and presence on this forum.

You sound like you are trying to discourage anyone reading your comments from treating with herbs (or maybe treating at all) and persuade people who know nothing about Buhner that his work is worthless at best and that he is something other than who he is.

I think Buhner's a great guy, I truly do, but his education is probably where he falls short with the science behind biofilms, persister cells, dormancy, and the blood brain barrier. I think when he talks about these issues, he manipulates by suggesting his herbal protocols either don't have to address them or they already address them. Suggesting biofilms are hysteria and that herbs like Japanese Knotweed cross the blood brain barrier efficient enough to eradicate neuro lyme. Japanese knotweed will never be efficient enough to take care of neuro lyme like minocycline, roxithromycin, rifampin, dapsone, disulfiram or IV antibiotics.

I wish everyone best of luck with their treatment, but I'm glad some of you questioning some of the stuff Stephen Buhner has said in his book, especially you Upatnite... Remember you and your daughter's health count on it!

You know just the other day a user on Facebook Group said there's no proof that herbs work for against borrelia infection, I'm like no proof? I'm like there's Dr. Zhang's study on essential oils against borrelia persister cells, Dr. Sapi's work on Stevia and other anti-biofilm herbs, even john hopkins study mentioned artemisinin worked on certain persister cells right up there with daptomycin, but again this is vitro, so it's a matter of getting artemisinin to absorb as well as it's pharmaceutical form called artesunate.
https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2018/essential-oils-from-garlic-and-other-herbs-and-spices-kill-persister-lyme-disease-bacteria.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc4681354/
http://danielcameronmd.com/researchers-identify-novel-drug-combinations-combat-lyme-persister-cells/

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/12/2019 4:09:10 AM (GMT-6)

Somebody said...
ElizKA26, here's my thoughts on solely using herbs, especially in the beginning stages of treating chronic lyme. If you're body is so far gone, meaning your immune system is so weakened by borrelia, coinfections, virues, and biofilms. How would ever one expect that just a 2 or 3 herb combo would get your body back to functioning state? And I suspect this can be a major problem using RSO oil for cancer. I mean I'm sure everyone's body is different and it's still possible, but for most, it's a very risky chance of just counting on herbs in the beginning.

The flip side is that abx can weaken the immune system as well. How much of a problem might this be when pathogens have already made their way into deeper body tissues?

We know that some of these microbes can be found in the bodies of people who are asymptomatic. Could abx be making it more difficult to achieve some kind of balance in the body? I often wonder where I’d be if instead of starting treatment with 30 days of doxy, I started with a Buhner protocol (probably 10+ herbs and supplements) that addressed my specific disease complex. I was already in mid to late stage so 30 days of abx might have done more harm than good.

And just to be clear, there may be some on the forum who say “only herbs and never abx”, but I don’t think anyone in this thread has implied that this is the correct path. Buhner himself doesn’t imply this either.

Somebody said...
And what did Buhner say, patients don't herx on Bartonella? Ummm, yeah he's definitely wrong on that...

I believe the theory is that they “shouldn’t” herx, but it is noted that patients often say they do. I remember reading that from his Bartonella book but I don’t own it to check the quote.

JovaLyme said...


My main problem has been psychological symptoms and fatigue, which is now severe, along with massive pain and cramps absolutely everywhere, burning sensations, vibration/moving sensations in various areas (including my head), vision problems, dizziness, balance and co-ordination trouble, an almost total inability to form new memories, seizures, rage, panic attacks, depression, muscle twitching, totally depersonalised most of the time... it's the whole lot really.

KAL's Magnesium Glicinate or Natural Vitality's Magnesium Citrate can help relieve some of the psycholigical problems associated with lyme and bartonella, especially rage and anxiety, as well as depression. Alpha lipoic acid can cross the brain barrier and help with stress too, as well as detox once you get on antibiotics.

Having seizures, muscle twitching, vibrations, rage , depersonalise all sounds like bartonella to me. You could have babesia as well, but you might just have bartonella and lyme, along with other coinfections like mycoplasma ya mentioned.

JovaLyme said...
Hi Charlie,

I went to a doctor originally in 2005, a few months after coming home from Australia. At that time I just felt weak and kept getting horrible pressure headaches, which he put down to tension headaches and put me on naproxen, which did nothing really. Since then, I've steadily declined, got misdiagnosed with bipolar and then spent 10 years on psych meds, which turned me into an obese, housebound zombie and I developed full-blown psychosis and everything else. I do/did have psychological problems as a result of being abused as a child, which the NHS missed completely, but I've since dealt with that myself and paid privately for therapy, which lasted around 3 years and has only just ended.

Problem with any of the psych meds is they lose their efficacy with time and if you have an infection like bartonella/babesia/borrelia they probably don't work as well, because Doctors aren't addressing the source of the problem, so they don't really work as good as compared to people with traditional psychological problems.. Some of these coinfections like bartonella can cause severe psychological problems, but I've heard babesia doing it to other other lyme patients as well, babesia made me severly fatigued and but mildly depressed at times.

You should try an antibiotic that crosses the blood brain barrier really well like minocycline, even doxy and flagyl, doxy at higher dosages can help increase the efficacy of crossing the blood brain barrier and flagyl crosses the blood brain barrier really well too. Then there's also others like amoxy which crosses, but rather weak antibiotic in general if taken in higher dosages for lyme. There's also rifampin, roxithromycin, dapsone, disulfiram as well.

Taking a warm bath can help increase the absorption of these antibiotics... As well as a higher fat low carb diet.

JovaLyme said...


They did do an MRI of my head a few months back when exploring the possibility of MS and it showed numerous areas of T2 flair in the subcortical white matter of my brain, likely of a small vessel basis. To me that says Bartonella, as it's the small vessels it attacks unless I am mistaken.

I'm glad you've made that conclusion, as it seems like both bartonella and borrelia seem to be the dominant infection for you based on your symptoms. I mean since the tick bite in 2005, Bartonella can lay dormant for years that show up later down the line. I got bit 10 years or so ago, not treating Bartonella very aggressively till now due to babesia being my dominant infection, I had to knock down Babesia to allow Bartonella to flare up, quite common.

You know I've heard Bactrim crosses the blood brain barrier pretty good by lyme patients on healingwell.com and lymenet.org, I haven't heart much about the blood brain barrier when researching bactrim. But I'd say something like bactrim and minocycline would probably be a better start for you considering I heard your symptoms and sounds like bartonella. Then maybe after a couple of months, maybe add in biaxin, rifampin, or omnicef. And really if you do have bartonella, you may just want to test the water first with one antibiotic and see how you respond, then work your way up to two, then three, as the psychological herxes from bartonella can be quite severe. Magnesium can extremely help with the psychological herxes, along with detoxing in espom salt baths.

JovaLyme said...


My CD57 count was about 60 and my Armin results showed weak current cellular activity against Borrelia.

Yeah my CD57 was down to around 50 something as well... But now doing so much better, you can get better!

JovaLyme said...


They also commented that it's likely I have Myco and Candida. I wasn't tested specifically for Bart and Babs, but I'd say it's likely given my symptoms, MRI results and the fact that Borrelia doesn't travel alone.

I think the candida issue is blown out of way proportions just like the mold issue... Treat the coinfections properly and eat your share of yogurt/probiotics and the good cultures will keep candida in check. But Mycoplasma can be an issue too, but is also treated with antibiotics.

JovaLyme said...


I've been doing a lot of research and have read various studies. I'm also fully versed in the whole biological warfare conspiracy theories. Whether it's true or not I simply don't care. I just want to get better and am trying to find a treatment plan that might actually work for me.

Thats good to hear. Yes, just focus on your health and studying the top LLMDs like Dr. H, Dr. J and Dr. B plus some of the herbalists on coinfections, you can read about the other stuff later in life if you want to. As anything stressful can just make the mind worse if you're dealing with bartonella.

JovaLyme said...


They did do an MRI of my head a few months back when exploring the possibility of MS and it showed numerous areas of T2 flair in the subcortical white matter of my brain.

Many of lyme patients develop the white matter lesions in the brain, doesn't prove you have MS. Considering you're getting a lot of other chronic lyme symptoms, you could very well still just dealing with a chronic infection and be able to heal with time. The white matter can go away if you get on some effective antibiotics that cross the blood brain barrier.

And I wouldn't leave out Babesia still, as some patients get more milder strains of babesia and stronger strains of bartonella. Babesia was my dominant infection for me, but everyone's different. And considering you got bit in Australia, the strains could very well act a little differently as well. You should definitely treat based on the primary symptoms you're feeling, then see if you respond to the antibiotics that match up to the coinfection symptoms you're feeling. I think it would even be smart to treat with some of the antibiotics and herbs that treat both babesia and bartonella at the same time after a few months into treatment, but again, you should test the waters first and start off slow if you have bartonella, as herxing can be bad...

I've read and seen plenty of videos talking about lyme in Autralia, seems as though many are getting the 3 b's over there. Even heard of the one lyme patient that passed away from babesia.

And if you need more help, hit me up on Facebook...
https://www.facebook.com/charlie.fitzgerald.737

Keep fighting man!

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/12/2019 10:51:52 PM (GMT-6)

I recommend for anyone taking antibiotics - not just one probiotic.

I have a few different ones at home and I rotate - usually take two different ones per day.

I have two brands of probiotics in capsule form, plus one called “Bio-K” that is in small serving size cups (it’s like yogurt but high amount of probiotics) and I have Kefir.

if I liked the taste of sauer kraut I would take it too.


Re: deciding what to treat with.
If you’re going to treat pharmaceutically without a LLMD - I suggest you get a subscription to LLMD Marty Ross’ online treatment “book”
He has combinations of abx categorized by infection.

https://www.treatlyme.net

JovaLyme said...

Bearing in mind my history, what do you think I should be asking for? I desperately need meds that will address the neuro symptoms, which are by far the worst.

JovaLyme said...
I'm going to give Buhner a try first. After all the heated debate on here, I've had a complete change of heart and am going to put my faith in the herbs. That's what the bible says!

I already listed some antibiotics and herbs which will help you. You sound very indecisive, you criticize Buhner, then you say you're going to do antibiotics, then say you're going to do just herbs.

I get it, you're in pain and in an agitative state, but I think you need to read more... If you can't do that, watch a lot of the YouTube video presentations from the top LLMDs like Dr. H, Dr. B, Dr. J and herbalists like Dr. Rawls and Buhner on YouTube, rather than just counting on other lyme patient's opinions. Then think about all of the information, try to digest it for a few days, then try to make a decision on what to do.

JovaLyme said...


If it's already cost the forum a new member, that's a very sad thing.

It happens all too often when one doesn't get their way and doesn't agree with other's opinions. This is a community not a dictatorship and just to remind some of you, Upatnite was the original poster of the thread, you have to respect others opinions and remember this is someone else's forum post as well... Many of us have taken hours out of our day to help not just JovaLyme, but Upatnite and other members who may read this in the future, what could be the pros and cons are of Buhner and his herbs.

JovaLyme said...


I think it would be beneficial for the forum if the thread was deleted.

And yes, Girlie, totally agree, as many different sources of probiotics as you can, along with an enzyme pill which many forget as well, which prebiotics and enzymes can compliment the probiotics quiet nicely.

Girlie said...
I recommend for anyone taking antibiotics - not just one probiotic.

I have a few different ones at home and I rotate - usually take two different ones per day.

I have two brands of probiotics in capsule form, plus one called “Bio-K” that is in small serving size cups (it’s like yogurt but high amount of probiotics) and I have Kefir.

if I liked the taste of sauer kraut I would take it too.

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/13/2019 5:38:16 PM (GMT-6)

Charlie - I know you mean well, but try not to scold JovaLyme for her indecision.
She is “New” to this and is trying to find a protocol that she is comfortable with - while she deals with neurolyme.
Suggesting she order abx online - maybe isn’t the best idea for her considering she doesn’t have knowledge about how to treat and doesn’t have a supportive lyme doc.

JovaLyme - if you want to save money - you could order just a few herbs and start with that. You’ll feel better knowing you’re doing “something”

Maybe Japanese knotweed to start?
You could start a new thread and ask for help...

Sources - if you want to take tinctures (they are best for titration the dose up slowly)
- Woodland Essence and Sage Woman Herbs are two I’ve tsken and like.
Might want to start with smaller bottles to start - in case you don’t tolerate one... you won’t have wasted as much $$

For capsule/pills - I’ve taken Green Dragon Botanicals

those above are on buhners list of recommended sources.

Girlie said...
Charlie - I know you mean well, but try not to scold JovaLyme for her indecision.

Appreciate the input Girlie... Yeah, I suspect JovaLyme is very irritable and in a lot of pain, as I've acknowledged this, having white lesions in the brain is a sure sign you need treatment that crosses the blood brain barrier pronto. Whether it's something like japanse knotweed or minocycline.

Deejavu said...


I suggest you do your research on antibiotics (especially since 80% of them are made in China and India) and find out what the ingredients are. You may be shocked what you will learn. Research how often the FDA inspects these manufacturing plants in China and India, another shocker.

A lot of the herbs and supplements on Amazon are made in these countries as well, I'm not sure what you're getting at... Are you implying antibiotics are made of poor quality and efficacy because they are made in China and India? Most the car parts, clothes you wear, shoes, sunglasses, phones, computers, tablets are all made over there as well. If you want to debate about slave labor, outsourcing, crony capitalism. I agree, we do need to end the tearanny of slave labor and outsourcing, but that doesn't mean other countries still don't make good products. Even at Costco there's organic food and supplements that are imported from China and other countries if you read the fine print.

Deejavu said...


We had a member here about 10 years ago (I still have her e-mails) and she was supposed to be in the first "Under Our Skin" documentary and guess what? Andy went to film her again only to find out that she was getting better using alternative medicine so he removed her from the documentary. Nice huh? She was so excited to be in this documentary and share her story but because she was using alternative medicine and getting well she was of no use to Andy.

I've never stated lyme patients can't get better on alternative therapy or herbs. As I explained up above, I just think it's rather risky just solely count on where a patient's immune system is too far gone along with their overall health in the beginning stage. Especially since someone like JovaLyme probably has neuroborreliosis and neurobartonellosis, I suspect relying on just japanese knotweed to erradicate neuro lyme and a coinfection like bartonella in the brain for someone like JovaLyme with white matter brain lesions is rather risky. And yes, I'm sure some would rather just count solely on herbs and their faith, that's fine, but there's others out there that base their decisions more on science. Because fact of the matter is, most herbs do not absorb or penetrate the blood brain barrier as well as minocycline, flagyl, rifampin, roxithromycin, dapsone, or disulfiram.

Deejavu said...


I'm healed and have been totally healed for almost 14 years now. Secondly, I knew where Jernigan grew the herbs he used in his botanicals (in Kansas) and that they were tested for lyme and co-infections. I wasn't putting something in my body that came from a foreign country in which I couldn't find what the ingredients were (though I found out some of the ingredients are they are not good).

That's great, so is Amy Tan, but it took her over 20 years to do so. Not every chronic lyme case is alike and not everyone can just heal solely on herbs, especially the neuro lyme patients that may need stronger drugs that cross the blood brain barrier.

Also define, healed? I can bench press 300 pounds, I ran/walked 10 miles a few weeks ago. So I guess I'm fully healed as well, but does that mean I reached remission because I think I'm healed.

JovaLyme, you have to play skeptic with a lot of the herbs, alternative therapies, and I'm supposedly healed, remission, and cured stories because there's a lot of chronic lyme patients getting taken advantage of. I mean lets not kid ourselves, everyone would love to be cured and say that they're protocol cured them. People are doing this all the time, like Charlie Sheen on Dr. Oz with AIDs. Truth of the matter is, many still aren't in remission, if they were actually cured, they would be out living their normal day to day lives and not on this lyme forum. There's people who will argue and argue with you that the vitamin salt protocol cured them, rife machines, master mineral supplement, mold treatment, etcc... And it seems any time you question these alternative treatments, they get offended. Everyone has a right to have an opinion and question anything they want, along with Stephen Buhner and his protocols.

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/13/2019 9:30:36 PM (GMT-6)