Disulfiram - Part 2

Quinn said "I got bartonella henselae (according to the PCR test) and I likely got it from a cat. What do people do when their cats are sick? Give them antibiotics. Unsurprisingly, I got a highly antibiotic-resistant strain of bartonella."

Yes, they get treated with antibiotics.

i went up to 250mg first time today and i had some symptoms come out that have been gone a long time. i think its the remnants of babesia i thought was long dead but recently learned under microscope that i still got some. not surprising since its babesia duncani which is 10x harder to kill that microti.

i also got some chest pain that is different than my chest nerve issues caused by bart i believe.

this proves to me that DSF has excellent penetration and can get into nooks and crannies where the bugs are hiding out and/or its killing previous resistant bugs.

Ricky, how long did it take you to get up to 250 mg daily?

If you don’t mind laying your dosing schedule to date that would be great

Does the neuropathy not subside after stopping the DSF?

It sounds like people are having dramatic results from even 125 every other day according to Liegner paper. Hopefully they’ll find that this can be enough in some patients and avoid chances for neuropathy.


From Liegner paper.
“ Several individuals, whose rather precarious clinical status induced the use of very low doses of disulfiram (e.g., 125 mg every third day only), demonstrated dramatic improvement in their clinical status, which prompted a change in strategy, using disulfiram as a ‘maintenance’ therapy. For these patients, a decision was made to hold in abeyance increases in doses of disulfiram with a view towards inducing ‘remission’, as appears to have been achieved in Cases 1 and 2.”

My brain isn’t working too great. Does he mean that this low dose could induce remission just like 500/daily could?

"For these patients, a decision was made to hold in abeyance increases in doses of disulfiram with a view towards inducing ‘remission’, as appears to have been achieved in Cases 1 and 2.”


Doesn't that mean - the goal is remission with these patients as well?

"a view towards inducing 'remission'.

Good luck to you all. Fingers crossed. Take care. One quick question? Red dots mentioned a few times here... I thought babs. But am reading Bart here. I have a ton of them. ??
Thanks.
May healing happen! X

So Rikky1 emailed me some good questions recently, Rikky1 asked me "if the bugs will develop a resistance to DSF just like it does to any other bug killer?"

I think coinfections could very well develop resistant to Disulfiram at the killing state. But even if some bugs develop a resistance to DSF, the drug will still be able used for waking up dormant pathogens which are hiding, then make them vulnerable to other drugs. Hence what they did with HIV in this article, I might of posted this link before in one of my old threads I posted about Disulfiram a year or so ago, but I thought this was a great article to help some understand how rotating drugs may help kill chronic lyme and coinfections. They call this the a "shock-and-kill" approach against HIV/AIDS. So they basically use DSF to wake up dormant HIV cells, then follow up with Antiretroviral therapy (ART) to kill them.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/302724.php

So rotating between something like DSF and Bactrim/Mino may be useful for something like bartonella. For instance, DSF for waking up Bartonella dormant persister cells then following up with Bactrim and Mino to kill them. Of course this is just theory : )

I mean I haven't even watched any of Dr. Liegner videos yet, but it seems as though he cured 2 out of 3 patients by just being on solely Disulfiram for 6-23 months without any drug. I thought a little bit more on why this may have worked even for bartonella, if these 2 out of 3 patients had the 3 B's. What makes DSF so beneficial is that you don't have to wipe out any of the microbiome while being on this drug, so maybe the thought process is, as DSF weakens borrelia, babesia, bartonella through those 6-23 months, it's also building up your immune system allowing your immune system to fully eradicate all 3 pathogens because DSF is not killing off any microbiome and it's basically allowing your immune system to eradicate the dormant pathogens DSF wakes up.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31151194

I mean using solely DSF sounds great and all, but if you ever know what it's like dealing with Bartonella flare up, I'm not so sure that solely counting DSF and immune system to eradicate the coinfection would be the safest way. I think following up with 3 antibiotics would be faster and not having the patient suffer... But I could be wrong...

I really suspect there could be multiple methods of using this drug... 1st way could longterm with just solely DSF.... 2nd way could be the "shock-and-kill" approach similar to HIV. 3rd could even be using DSF with other antibiotics like doxy at the same time.

And like I've posted before, there's still the studies that suggest using copper ions with DSF make the drug even more effective for drug resistant turberculosis. What if they were pair some type of stevia synthetic compound with DSF in intravenous form. I suspect herxing would be completely intolerable! I think the main goal is reaching a remission state without having the chronic lyme patient from having to go to the emergency room for severe herxing, lyme seizures, or the psychological effects. What I mean is, I suspect out of all the different methods that cure lyme with DSF, lyme patients will want to take the less severe herxing route.

I'm still wondering how Dr. Lewis will use the drug and I'm not even sure if Dr. Kim Lewis understands and factors in psyhcological herxes, body herxes, the lyme seizures, tremors, heart racing like Dr. H does, as Dr. Lewis hasn't treated thousands of chronic lyme patients like Dr. H or Dr. J. Scary thought, I suspect there may be some patients going to the emergency room in the upcoming DSF study... I know I had bartonella flare ups when I was on DSF just for a month, I didn't even understand some of these weird symptoms, I bet Dr. Lewis or any other patients won't either...

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/13/2019 2:50:30 AM (GMT-6)

I know we are waiting on a lot more patient reports but of Leigner’s 3, the two who appear to be cured did take a full 500mg daily without buildup or pulsing.

It was months ago I read it but I believe that is how it was. The parient who went low dose for a while, did not succeed fully, as the other 2 seem to have.

Correct me if I am wrong. I will find the article later when I have time.

oregonhay said...

I just wanted to mention I read your posting and just took some copper, in the form of Chlorophyll Mint Flavored supplement fact "Copper (from Chlorophyllin Copper Complex) 6mg 667% - 2 tablespoons or 1 ounce" my dosage was 1/4 teaspoon to make sure it didn't contain alcohol and I will wait a day to take the full 1 ounce.

Been 15 minutes, So far so good!

So you think this will super charge DSF?

Awesome, worth a try ya know, it may or may not work, I just know I've read studies suggesting it works against drug resistant tuberculosis. But I suspect many won't be able to tolerate copper long term, as many have leaky gut. I tried a copper supplement and just felt a little too metallic in my mouth after a week, kind of felt a little toxic from what I remember. But I know there's probably other supplements out there that may be able to absorb slower in the system. Or you could always pulse the copper like every 3-4 days if you get this feeling.

I have a hard time tolerating the herxing from kelp/brazil nuts right now, any time I take it my bartonella goes nuts and flares up, so I've decided to take it every other day or every 4 days if the herxing becomes intolerable. I cut the 225mcg Country Life Artic Kelp tablet in two with a pill splitter because the bartonella herxing is so severe.

jb1994 said...
Yeah getting the iodine from kelp seems the way to go. Someone recommended Iodoral and that stuff nearly killed me for how bad I was herxing. My feet have been crazy active lately with the sensations, don't know what's up. I've been kinda eating like crap this week so maybe the bart is feeding on my bad food choices.

It's herxing jb1994, I'm telling you. Because after the herxing stops, I feel incredibly great. I can feel the iodine from kelp settle in my ankles/feet tissue where the bartonella seems to be hang out at, soon as I start feeling pins and needles, muscles start twitching, then here comes the sever anxiety, denationalization feeling. I'm not sure if other iodine supplements do this... All I know is for me, for my Bartonella, the Country Life Arctic Kelp drives the bartonella nuts. Country Life also has a Norwegian version as well too, I have not tried that one yet.

However, I did think I tried traditional iodine for a 3-4 days before the Country Life Kelp brand, didn't seem to do much other than just make me feel kind of toxic like a copper or iron mineral supplement. Then I tried kelp, it seemed to absorb in the body better, and didn't make me feel toxic, but then I got reckless and on the second day I took two tablets, that was the wrong thing to do, because I got a herx that felt as if I was dieing, tremors, all that... No lyme seizure thank God. This was when I was on CSA formula/A-Bab/Teasel too. It took me about 3-4 days to recover with constant detoxing in the bath, water. But aftwards I felt great, however the Bartonella symptoms became permanent and got worse. Antibiotics were needed, especially mino for crossing the blood brain barrier, so again now I'm on Mino/Bactrim/Omnicef.

The tingling underneath my arm pit the other day was one of the weirdest sensations I ever got from taking kelp, again, as the CDC stated, maybe because bartonella can cause lymph nodes to swell and that's where it settles. Hmmmm.... Kelp would of figured? I wish I had discovered this supplement 8 years ago, as I wonder if it would of done anything for my chronic lyme in the beginning stages or if it only just works effectively against bartonella?

I haven't read much about kelp and it's relation to chronic lyme, other than this post here that stated iodine may kill bartonella persisters, but they were actually talking about Brown Seaweed or Fucoidan. I suspect there's some similarities between brown seaweed/fucoidan and kelp.
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3828684

If anyone tries the kelp tablets and have bartonella, just be sure to go slow, but I suspect not everyone will have the same reaction depending what stage of treatment you're in.

Rikky1 said...

It’s said some people are saying it’s not doing much to Bart but it sure is giving me the same Bart herxes I get from some of the Tier 1 Bart drugs.

I definitely got Bartonella herxes from Disulfiram, but they were very very mild and would come and go every 4-5 days from what I remember. Now after knocking back Babesia, I know what a real Bartonella herx feels like and I deal with bartonella symptoms every day.

If someone's brave and I never tried it before, it would be interesting to try the Country Life Arctic Kelp I'm using with Disulfiram, see what happens?

It takes about I'd say 7 hours for the iodine from kelp to reach my ankles/feet, hands, and even I can feel it in my brain, so it isn't instant like antibiotics. It's the similar feeling that jb1994 describes as it will settle deep in your tissue and last about two days there... For me it feels like pins and needles, tingling... I mean if you have leaky gut and take a crap load of salt, you'll probably have the same feeling...

jb1994 said...
I cannot detox it properly and it ends up getting stored in my tissues and unused. Iodine shouldn't be used if you have detox problems because it will pull out halides and recirculate them.

Yeah a few of us might have stumbled upon something, more members on here with bartonella need to try kelp, see if they herx and get a reaction to it too? I also eat about 3/4 of a brazil nut with my 1/2 of tablet of kelp to make sure I keep the proper thyroid hormone balance for my thyroid. It gives me a ton of energy too, but 7 hours from then, that's when I get the herx from hell starts, I know when it's coming, again because I can feel the pins and needle feelings in my tissue of my ankles and feet. If you ever felt what salt feels like on an exposed wound, I'd say it kind of feels like that, but a lot more mild, not painful, internal tingling feeling deep within the tissue. Hey... maybe they were on to something with the Vitamin C/Salt protocol, just using the wrong salt, lol... Maybe they needed iodine salt from kelp... Be interesting to take vitamin c and kelp together see what happens, I'll pass though, herxing is bad enough.

Rikky1 said...


Dr. J is a firm believer that you must eradicate babesia first or you can’t
Knock out Lyme and Bart and best treated thousands. So In any event anyone trying DSF should hit babesia and might open up things.

I think he's exactly right and I think this is where most of the LLMDs get this wrong for chronic lyme patients. They don't treat aggressively enough or long enough for Babesia. I had to take a crap load of antiparasitic drugs for a 1-2 months, then the herbs for 3-4 months, then follow up with kelp and brazil nuts to wake up the bartonella and treat it effectively. Babesia is a b!tch, especially if you have Babesia duncani, which I suspect I had. I still take cryptolepis every day just as precaution/maintenance protocol so the darn thing doesn't surface again, hopefully Bactrim also hits it too and keeps in remission as I treat the Bartonella.

And again, the kelp/iodine may be hitting biofilms too...

"Povidone-iodine ointment demonstrates in vitro efficacy against biofilm formation."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26968574

Swanson's got it for $10 with free shipping on eBay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/country-life-arctic-kelp-225-mcg-300-tabs/172956389324?epid=1300125905

Again, be careful though, if you suspect you have Hashimotos or Graves, you should check your thyroid antibodies first. If they are high, you should hold off, try treating babesia or bartonella effectively, see if the antibodies go down, then try kelp. As too much iodine can raise thyroid antibodies and make your immun system attack your thyroid. Like Dr. Evan Hirsch said, there's a big link between bartonella to the thyroid, as well as I suspect babesia to the thyroid as well. These coinfections may be attracted to the thyroid because of the incredible blood supply as remarked by Hirsch.
https://youtu.be/tgjjtdapfdi?t=912

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/14/2019 4:05:34 AM (GMT-6)

steelogreens said...
Everyone I started disulfarim today. Wish me luck.

Are you starting at low dose and not daily?
And are you taking it by itself?

Good luck!

It must be documented how many of the Lyme patients who suffer from neuropathy are using, or are in contact with tobacco. As DSF + Tobacco increases the likelyhood of neuropathy.
Disulfiram is bioactivated by CYP3A4, if taken with medication acting on same enzyme, the levels will be higher, resulting in higher chance of neuropathy. This must also be documented; the other drugs the patients are on.
Optical/vision neuropathy can occur also.
Often, the neuropathy is reversible when discontinuing DSF.