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Posted 9/20/2019 1:56 AM (GMT 0)
Borrelia definitely produces ammonia on herxheimer die off, but I have reasons to believe that bartonella is the worse out of the tick pathogens that causes the most prolific ammonia release, that's why majority of lyme patients with bartonella have neuro symptoms. And I suspect that's why our urine smells like cat piss, because a good percentage of cats do carry this pathogen just like toxoplasmosis, aka brain parasite.

Some believe lyme neuro symptoms are just from the bacteria or parasite itself, wreaking havoc on the brain, as I'm sure it can be, but it may actually be directly from the ammonia build up in the brain. Another member on here suspects the same as well

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3434110

Georgia Hunter said...
I believe that ammonia production is the main problem for Lyme patients. I believe it causes the neuro issues and if ammonia production is decreased, the Lyme patients will get better. It has worked for me and some prominent physicians believe the same.

Remind you Georgia Hunter is a very smart dude, I remember him saying he owns a pharmacy... Which I suspect some of you know considering the posts asking for help from him at times.

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3887440

Georgia Hunter said...


I am opening a retail pharmacy in a month or so and my banker had given him my number. Of all things, I didn't expect that question. I think my wife laughed more than I did.

Anyways, my ammonia levels got a lot better after switching from sida acuta/houttuynia to bactrim/omnicef/mino/houttuynia, however I'm still getting mild bartonella neuro symptoms and a lot of ammonia in my urine. Of course I've been doing detox baths, magnesium/turmeric/alpha lipoic acid/milk thistle for detox, but it hasn't been enough for the ammonia.

What did help the most was adding lemon to my baking soda water, to get the full citric acid affect, which seems to be the best for detox and lower cytokines according to this article. It seems to be helping a lot with the removal of ammonia from my body, as well as taking a break off the antibiotics and herbs.

http://lymemd.blogspot.com/2018/04/deconstructing-herxheimer-and-lyme.html

I've tried the L-Arginine + L-Ornithine from Vitamin Shoppe, which suppose to help detox the brain of ammonia, but I didn't like the feeling I got, even when starting slow with the supplement. I got headaches, dizziness and seem to make my neuro symptoms worse.

Anyways next thing to do is maybe try Yucca, which tends to be a good binder for Ammonia. Many say active charcoal is a good binder for most herxheimer toxins, but others say it doesn't work for binding ammonia. Then of course there's Neuro Antitox II from Dr. J, but $60 a bottle. Something didn't sit with me right when I read this article about the Hansa Center down below, seems as though there are some questionable claims made by Dr. J and Hansa Center with his protocols and supplements, I think this is worth mentioning considering the article's connection of Hansa to HealingWell.com, however I do think Dr. J does helps a lot of patients and gives quite an accurate description of the herxheimer toxins linked to borrelia and how they need to be addressed on his blog. Some say Neuro Antitox II has worked for them, while others on LymeNet.org reported it not doing a thing, I've heard the alcohol version works better than the apple cider vinegar version. But $60 a pop, sorry can't afford that and I think this is price gouging.

https://www.cjonline.com/news/business/2016-09-13/state-medical-board-has-spent-years-investigating-hansa-natural-health-care

cjonline.com said...

In July 2014, the Kansas State Board of Healing Arts received a letter from “B. Mellon,” of Scottsbluff, Neb. The letter detailed “lengthy fictitious posts about the wonders and successes of the Hansa Center” on the websites Healingwell and MDJunction.

This was a great writeup from Dr. J about addressing ammonia before they even get worse, even with L-Ornithine/L-Aspartate, which is also a tad bit pricey, the Allergy Research bottle is around $40 on Amazon.

http://davidjernigan.blogspot.com/2015/05/eliminating-ammonia-toxicity-in-lyme.html

Anyways, my other option is getting my LLMD to write a prescription for Lactulose...

Some on the forum have discovered the association of ammonia and the extreme neurological problems, but I think some are missing the fact that bartonella could be the dominant cause.... However, I'm sure babesia and especially borrelia also cause die off ammonia toxins too, but I'm not sure if they're as severe as bartonella.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6830521/suicidal-teenager-hospitalised-schizophrenia-actually-infected-cat-scratches.html

Somebody said...

Teenager caught a mind-altering infection from his cat, started believing he was the 'son of the devil' and having suicidal thoughts

He suffered with hallucinations, rage outbursts and thoughts of killing his family

Do take your ammonia symptoms seriously if you have the smell from pee/urine, sweating or even the taste in your mouth. I've read some lyme patients on the forum describe it as tasting like bleach in their mouth, it's actually ammonia.

And I suspect many that are using antibiotics and herbs, they'll probably be times where you'll have to take a break from these drugs and supplements to allow your kidneys and liver to flush these toxins out so your neuro symptoms don't get worse. Bartonella replicates fast, so can't let the break be for too long...

Also here's a post from a few years back of a LymeNet member that make a Eureka moment of the connection between Ammonia and Bartonella.

"Bart and Ammonia -- Eureka Moment"
http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/60046?#000005

seibertneurolyme said...


Wish I had found this journal article sooner. This Bart info explains so much about hubby's history.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=348914

"Growth Characteristics of Bartonella henselae in a New Novel Liquid Medium"

His first antibiotic was IV Rocephin -- took us 3 months to do a normal 2 month course. During that time frame and for the next 4 or 5 months hubby suffered from hepatic encephalopathy due to elevated blood ammonia.

At the time his PCP found elevated levels of Klebsiella and several other G.I. bacteria which are ammonia producing. Levels of the 4 or 5 different bacteria were only slightly elevated.

The symptoms hubby had were confusion and gait ataxia following meals with lots of protein.

Dr B put hubby on Levaquin for a clinically diagnosed Bart infection. Blood ammonia levels returned to normal and hepatic encephalopathy symptoms went away. Symptoms started returning after 1 month on Levaquin so did an additional 2 months of Levaquin.

The referenced journal article says that Bartonella produce ammonia.

And the second astounding finding is that the growth requirements of Bartonella include glutamine. When hubby first got sick he was already taking supplemental l-glutamine as a preventative for gastritis. He stopped this within a few weeks of getting sick as it seemed to make him feel worse.

Hubby went on to develop severe gastritis -- entire stomach uniformly red from top to bottom -- and he lost 30 pounds and was reduced to eating baby food when he could eat. Several alternative docs tried hubby on various protein type meal replacement drinks -- most have very high glutamine concentrations.

When hubby tried these it would either cause dry heaves or make him shake. We just thought the drinks were irritating to the stomach and eventually gave up on them.

In September of this year when hubby once again got gastritis after taking low dose Zithromax for 3 days I once again tried him on protein drinks. These were from a health food store and not quite so concentrated. Do think hubby started doing better when he was able to move on to soup and soft food and decreased the number of protein drinks.

Waited a couple of weeks and started on low dose l-glutamine. With everything else that was going on symptom-wise I really couldn't tell how hubby was handling the glutamine, but gastritis obviously was not healing.

The more I read and review hubby's case the more convinced I am that the Bartonella is a major major issue. And it seems pretty evident that it is in both his brain and G.I.

Bea Seibert

Now remember this is just some of the conclusions I've made, maybe I'm a little inaccurate about some things, I just hope others add to the post if I missed anything. I know some other members mentioning a supplement called Zeolite that helps bind to ammonia as well and remove it.

List of Supplements to Remove Ammonia
-------------------------------------------------------------
Activated Charcoal (Some report it works, other say it won't bind to Ammonia)
Yucca $8-10 (Some say it works and bind to Ammonia, other say they feel nothing)
l-ornithine NOW $10
l-ornithine l-aspartate Allergy Research $37-$60
l-ornithine l-arginine Vitamin Shoppe $17
Neuro Antitox II $57
Lactulose Drug (Need Prescription)
L-citrulline
Zeolite
Product named Ammonia Scavenger $44
Also -------------------------- https://youtu.be/jlfesmhv1mi?t=686
Golden Larch
Alpha-Ketoglutarate
L-Lysine
Prebiotic or Probiotic May Reduce Ammonia As Well From Dr. H Article.
https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/6/4/129/htm

mdpi.com said...


Several patients with cognitive dysfunction and no evidence of severe liver disease (i.e., cirrhosis) had high ammonia levels. Ammonia, a byproduct of the metabolism of nitrogen-containing compounds, is neurotoxic at elevated concentrations [225] and the liver clears most portal vein ammonia, converting it into glutamine and urea. Glutamine is metabolized in mitochondria, yielding glutamate and ammonia, and ammonia can evoke oxidative/nitrosative stress, mitochondrial abnormalities, and astrocyte swelling, which is a major component of brain edema [226]. Ammonia levels can be decreased by reducing intestinal production (lactulose, rifaximin, diet), L-ornithine, prebiotic, and probiotic supplementation [227]

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/21/2019 5:16:23 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/20/2019 2:01 AM (GMT 0)
Be careful with lactulose if you suspect SIBO it literally feeds the SIBO
Posted 9/20/2019 2:08 AM (GMT 0)

jb1994 said...
Be careful with lactulose if you suspect SIBO it literally feeds the SIBO

Awesome post, I forgot to mention that, I read another member saying that on here.

The amount of wealth of information on this forum now is worth more than gold, I sure hope everyone makes use of the search box on here as well as on LymeNet.org.
Posted 9/20/2019 7:35 AM (GMT 0)
Interesting video, Dr. Samuel Jameson from Hansa mentioned a few I haven't heard, golden larch and alpha-ketoglutarate.
https://youtu.be/jlfesmhv1mi?t=686
Posted 9/20/2019 8:30 AM (GMT 0)
Dang Charlie, you went way back to find those. Please remember my comments are just my thoughts based on research and could change if new research became available. FWIW, they haven't changed in several years so I still am holding on to my current beliefs. I don't believe that Borrelia or Bartonella produce ammonia. They are relatively inefficient and steal what they need from us. It is what they cause that creates the excess ammonia. There are many types of bacteria in our GI tract and some of those bacteria are called "nitrogen fixers." They basically use nitrogen as a fuel source and the by product is ammonia. This is what happens in our GI tract when we eat animal protein or other high nitrogen foods. Our body can also produce ammonia in the ornithine cycle and in the transsulfuration cycles. Pathogens (protozoans) can directly affect the ornithine cycle to cause us to greatly increase ammonia production and nutrient deficiencies can increase ammonia through the transsulfuration cycle. All three issues can occur at the same time so there are multiple ways that can increase ammonia. The best way to decrease ammonia levels is to not eat nitrogen. If GI bacteria are a main issue (and they are with Lyme) then not eating nitrogen can cause die offs that cause herxes and the person may not be able to detoxify sufficiently. The increased acids that form in the body from having Lyme also decreases our ability to get rid of ammonia. Oxidized glutathione is not utilized in the body so extra acid decreases our ability to detoxify.

OCD and anxiety need their own post, that is a different direction.
Posted 9/20/2019 9:09 AM (GMT 0)

Georgia Hunter said...
Dang Charlie, you went way back to find those.

OH YEAH!!!!
https://youtu.be/gq11fuxpgm0?t=556

Of COURSE, the amount of information and relating one's symptoms to other members on this forum is a complete gold mine.

Georgia Hunter said...


I don't believe that Borrelia or Bartonella produce ammonia. They are relatively inefficient and steal what they need from us. It is what they cause that creates the excess ammonia.

I appreciate the clarification, but either way, there's a huge relation to high ammonia and these pathogens, whether it's from the die off or what they create.

And I think you're right, because after reading some of the threads on LymeNet.org, some lyme patients said after they did cipro that their neuro symptoms and ammonia problems went away. One reported the amount of progress they made with fluoroquinolone within a month was comparable to 8 months of IV antibiotics.

seibertneurolyme said Levaquin was the only antibiotic did get rid of her husband's elevated blood ammonia problem.
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/60589#000009

Georgia Hunter said...


There are many types of bacteria in our GI tract and some of those bacteria are called "nitrogen fixers." They basically use nitrogen as a fuel source and the by product is ammonia. This is what happens in our GI tract when we eat animal protein or other high nitrogen foods. Our body can also produce ammonia in the ornithine cycle and in the transsulfuration cycles.

Totally makes sense, prolly make sense to go on a low protein diet for bartonella, compared to a low carb diet for borrelia.

Georgia Hunter said...


OCD and anxiety need their own post, that is a different direction.

I know, but I suspect ammonia is the main cause of these neuro symptoms when it comes bartonella.

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/20/2019 3:52:45 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/20/2019 9:23 AM (GMT 0)

sandyfeet said...
Thanks for this post Charlie55! Especially the list and personal experiences.

Well when all these neurological symptoms follow along with ammonia right after treating babesia, one could only suspect a major relation. Especially when my liver and kidneys are healthy and the ammonia has no relation to something like cirrhosis.

Just reading more about bartonella and it's link to ammonia, thyroid disease, as well as a host of other neurological disorders. One could see how this bacteria sends Doctors, even patients, even lyme patients out on a wild goose chase. I made a previous thread about the link between bartonella and thyroid disease.
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4149462

I hope everyone reads it, because as Dr. Hirsch said, he weaned a patient off her thyroid medicine just by treating bartonella because she was in a hyperthyroid like state.
https://youtu.be/htrfq7iwmky?t=779

And considering some of the studies on Lactulose and polyethylene glycol for cirrhosis and hepatic encephalopathy, it might be a good idea to try Miralax with Lactulose or even a binder like Yucca root with Miralax, they may help complement one another if you have ammonia problems. Miralax(polyethylene glycol) may also work decent just by itself for ammonia.... But I dont know for sure, gotta try and see what works best for you ; )
http://www.hughesmedicine.com/2014/10/role-for-polyethylene-glycol-in.html

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/20/2019 3:54:09 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/20/2019 12:04 PM (GMT 0)
You can always buy a smaller 2 oz bottle of Jernigan Nuero-antitox for $28 on the website. Try it out and see if it works. I don't think $56 for a month's supply is price gouging myself. Especially since they're the only ones that make it. Also you can find deals and sales on the eebsite many times throught the year on the Jernigan website.

Concerning your title with ocd/intrusive thoughts. Have you tried pure inositol? Back in 2011 I went through a 3 month period of getting horrible intrusive thoughts all day long. 6 grams of Inositol powder was the only thing I found that helped. It literally saved my life.
Posted 9/21/2019 1:50 AM (GMT 0)
Don't think low-protein is good for Bart as I'm on a high-protein diet and my symptoms are far better on (semi) keto than when I was eating more carbs.
Posted 9/21/2019 3:28 AM (GMT 0)
I'm actually taking the L-orithine / l-aspartate combo right now. I've read that that those two together are the best for reducing ammonia.

I'm also taking molybdenum twice a day and it really seems to helping with detox.
Posted 9/21/2019 6:42 AM (GMT 0)
Rifampin's ability to help Lyme patients is one of several reasons I feel that most Lyme patients have more problems from the translocation of bacteria than they do the borrelia bacteria itself. When dealing with antibiotics, we often use terms like MIC (Minimum Inhibitory Concentration), MBC (Minimum Bactericidal Concentration), and Volume of Distribution. All are important in an antibiotic's ability to stop a pathogen. In Rifampin's case, it has an extremely high volume of distribution, much greater than many other antibiotics. It's so high that patients are often told their tears or sweat may change colors because of the antibiotic. Both Rifampin and Azithromycin are similar in their volume of distribution but have one major difference, azithromycin is bacteriostatic and rifampin can be bactericidal. This is huge in Lyme patients because of the down regulation of our immune response. Azithromycin stays in the tissues much longer but can't kill the bacteria without our immune response but rifampin can kill them.

To sum it up, I feel that the borrelia bacteria in Lyme patients creates a situation where the "other" bacteria present in their body cause problems. Normal bacteria that usually are not problematic become problems because of their increased numbers and because of their location. This is one of the reasons I feel that bartonella is not the main problem in patients with Lyme. Borrelia and bartonella do not cause problems for everyone and only in a small percentage of people. There is a reason for that and it has to do with the "other" bacteria/pathogens/yeasts in one's system and how much oxidative stress that person is under. The state of our immune system determines how much oxidative stress we can handle and when we can't handle it, the body starts flipping genes off and on which down regulates our immune response. This increases pathogen survival but also increases our survival. It's the lesser of two evils.
Posted 9/21/2019 9:59 AM (GMT 0)

Georgia Hunter said...


Normal bacteria that usually are not problematic become problems because of their increased numbers and because of their location. This is one of the reasons I feel that bartonella is not the main problem in patients with Lyme. Borrelia and bartonella do not cause problems for everyone and only in a small percentage of people. There is a reason for that and it has to do with the "other" bacteria/pathogens/yeasts in one's system and how much oxidative stress that person is under. The state of our immune system determines how much oxidative stress we can handle and when we can't handle it, the body starts flipping genes off and on which down regulates our immune response. This increases pathogen survival but also increases our survival. It's the lesser of two evils.

https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=17512.0

I've been reading more about SIBO, klebsiella and other bacteria in the intestines which can cause an increase of ammonia and anxiety, OCD and even intrusive thoughts. I think there's many, even Dr. Kim Lewis that may think that overuse of antibiotics is leading to this and basically it's case closed with Chronic Lyme/Lyme PTSD. However, why do so many lyme patients that once they treat their babesia effectively, then all of a sudden come down with a whole host of neurological symptoms pop up right afterwards? Is it just a coincidence in the 8 years of me using antibiotics, it wasn't until all this ammonia and psych symptoms popped up after using 5-6 months of antiparasitic drugs and herbs. Meanwhile I feel the best I've ever been in the treatment of chronic lyme, I'm out running, lifting weights, and have no intolerance to foods, no stomach pain, constipation, diarrhea, bloating or any of the other symptoms related to SIBO or a bacteria like klebsiella.

I also eat a plain yogurt on a daily basis, kefir as well as probiotics. I'm also on a low sugar vegetable protein diet(Keto).

Georgia Hunter said...


This is one of the reasons I feel that bartonella is not the main problem in patients with Lyme.

Bartonella can become a big problem for AIDs patients as well as for cancer patients, I've read this is how we've discovered how problematic this bacteria can become for people with patients compromised immune systems, hence a borrelia infection.

And I suspect if Dr. Sapi is finding biofilms and spirochetes in patients after 16 years of antibiotic use, it's very likely that these biofilms are also making bartonella resistant to drugs as well.

https://youtu.be/_gojg7qzomw?t=12m15s

There's already been studies done by Yale how drug resistant babesia is... As well as bartonella... I suspect if you add in borrelia forming biofilm formations into the picture with these already drug resistant coinfections, you probably have one drug resistant multisystemic chronic infection.

https://news.yale.edu/2018/11/29/yale-scientists-develop-new-system-study-emerging-tickborne-disease

Anyways, I'm glad you clarified your perspective on what you think is causing the over abundance of ammonia in lyme patients, so you think it's just the overuse of antibiotics and the borrelia pathogen that's created just an imbalance in the microbiome? I suspect it could play a role, but I think there's too many lyme patients that have severe of neuro symptoms that share the specific signs of bartonella during a flare like the common stretch marks, eye floaters, muscle twitching, soar heals, and severe arthritis. And I've read that many that have these obvious signs of a bartonella flare, also commonly share signs of high ammonia in their body and brain.

And just a thought, I really suspect the anxiety/OCD/PANS/Intrusive thoughts is a lot more severe from bartonella than someone just suffering from SIBO...

I think we're still in a very unknown world with bartonella, considering there's over 20 known species, the blood tests are very inaccurate. I suspect just like Dr. Hirsch claimed, that majority of people in our country carry this bacteria and all it takes is a certain stress factor for it to come out. And that many Doctors and patients go on a wild goose chase for years thinking they have hashimotos/graves treatment, need psych drug treatment, SIBO, as well as other diseases and disorders. Just like the misdiagnosis of Lyme, hence the stories we've heard just with the celebrities getting misdiagnosed. Or even Hally Hillfiger who was sent to the pscyh ward.

"Kris Kristofferson Has Lyme Disease, Not Alzheimer's"
https://www.newsmax.com/health/headline/kris-kristofferson-lyme-disease/2016/06/09/id/733155/

Man, it's a very scary thought to think how these celebrities were probably saved due to their money and high profile status, I wonder how many in the middle and lower class are falling between the cracks...

I also wonder how many immunocompromised patients that need blood are contracting babesia and bartonella from blood banks?

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/21/2019 4:39:16 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/21/2019 10:28 AM (GMT 0)

RainyCloud said...

But Charlie55 is on to something...

I mean there's plenty of studies out there suggesting both the over abundance of ammonia from SIBO, ammonia from cirrhosis of the liver, and even ammonia from bartonella and borrelia.

I suspect both lyme patients need to be concerned and consider all of it, but why do alzheimer and parkinson patients have such a incidence of ammonia and hepatic encephalopathy? Lot of questions, not enough answers.... I suspect we sit on a foundation of lies within the medical system, where something like bartonella and even borrelia could open up a whole host of connections related to whole host of diseases and disorders like thyroid disease, fibromyalgia, psych disorders, parkinsons, etc...

Ya know, in some cases they've found borrelia dna connected to even Glioblastoma, Cancerous Brain Tumors.
https://drdarvish.com/chronic-lyme-disease-glioblastoma-bellevue-wa
http://danielcameronmd.com/when-it-looks-like-a-brain-tumor-but-it-is-lyme-disease/

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/21/2019 4:38:52 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/21/2019 10:43 AM (GMT 0)

JayPoppa said...
I'm actually taking the L-orithine / l-aspartate combo right now. I've read that that those two together are the best for reducing ammonia.

I'm also taking molybdenum twice a day and it really seems to helping with detox.

That’s what dr J recommended when I tested higher for ammonia. LOLA
Posted 9/21/2019 10:51 AM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...


That’s what dr J recommended when I tested higher for ammonia. LOLA

Question girlie, when did you ammonia levels start peaking? I suspect after doing dapsone/daraprim and Dr. J's other antiparasitics for 5-6 months.... I think it's just a sure sign of both bartonella surfacing, as well as borrelia and bartonella being killed in high loads after successfully knocking back Babesia. I suspect you didn't have this high ammonia before treating with the traditional antibiotics?

I wonder what the ammonia levels are for disulfiram patients after being on the drug for a few months, as I've been reading many reports of some disulfiram patients getting psychosis on the Facebook group, high loads of ammonia from die toxins or is the psychosis from side effects from the drug? I'd put money on it was from the ammonia from bartonella surfacing, even possibly extreme borrelia die off as well. The one thing disulfiram does is effectively target babesia... As the new study shows, considering it cured 2 out of 3 patients with borrelia and babesia.

Anyways, just guesses of mine. In the 8 years of treating my chronic lyme, I never really got any anxiety/OCD during herxheimer reactions. Until I treated aggressively my Babesia... I think many are underestimating the resiliency of Babesia, it could be very well just as resistant Malaria. It may not kill you like Malaria, but it definitely keeps you immunocompromised. I know the one lady that runs the Babesia Buddies group, she claims that Babesia suppresses Bartonella, now I'm not sure if that's fact, but after reading a lot of lyme patients coinfections with the 3 B's, that could very well be the case. And when you start getting the ammonia smell in your urine, that's a sure sign you've finally knocked back babesia and you're finally effectively targetting bartonella and borrellia.

I suspect someone like Dr. and Dr. H would know the actual ratio how many chronic lyme patients come down with ammonia from SIBO and cirrhosis versus the ammonia die off from borrelia and bartonella. It would be an interesting question to ask them...

Interesting, I recently found this article under Dr. H
https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/6/4/129/htm

mdpi.com said...


Several patients with cognitive dysfunction and no evidence of severe liver disease (i.e., cirrhosis) had high ammonia levels. Ammonia, a byproduct of the metabolism of nitrogen-containing compounds, is neurotoxic at elevated concentrations [225] and the liver clears most portal vein ammonia, converting it into glutamine and urea. Glutamine is metabolized in mitochondria, yielding glutamate and ammonia, and ammonia can evoke oxidative/nitrosative stress, mitochondrial abnormalities, and astrocyte swelling, which is a major component of brain edema [226]. Ammonia levels can be decreased by reducing intestinal production (lactulose, rifaximin, diet), L-ornithine, prebiotic, and probiotic supplementation [227]

Interesting, I noticed when I eat yogurt and take probiotics/enzymes I seem to feel a reduction of neuro symptoms... Makes sense, So I'll have to add that as the supplements for ammonia as well, as recommended by Dr. H article: prebiotic and probiotic.

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/21/2019 5:14:52 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/21/2019 5:22 PM (GMT 0)
I didn’t know what my levels were prior to seeing Dr J.
But I tested high (not very high - just a few points out of range) in August 2018 - at that time I was on Babesia protocol - Mepron, mino and Ceftin

I didnt test again until I went back to the clinic the following March because I couldn’t get it done here.
At that point I had completed several rounds of Persister protocol which included D and D.
My result was higher (I think just one point higher) and it was considered in range. ( just barely)

No one could explain why the range changed and why I was now considered in range when the result went up by a point
Posted 9/21/2019 6:12 PM (GMT 0)
I’ve not done a liver cleanse - but I always take supplements for my liver.
One of the ones I used to take - I believe is part of a cleanse

Pekana Apo-Hepat

I’m now taking milk thistle seed extract
Posted 9/21/2019 9:07 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
I didn’t know what my levels were prior to seeing Dr J.
But I tested high (not very high - just a few points out of range) in August 2018 - at that time I was on Babesia protocol - Mepron, mino and Ceftin

I think it's very likely the case most lyme patients with babesia will probably see a spike in ammonia as you're lowering the dominant infection, and allowing your body to kill the other two coinfections bartonella and borrelia. And if you completely put babesia in remission, it could be likely the case where your ammonia symptoms could sky rocket especially if you have bartonella. I really suspect this can happen for a lot of lyme patients with babesia, so be careful girlie.

I got a brief taste of the ammonia neuro symptoms when I was disulfiram only for a month a year ago and it's highly unlikely any of those neuro symtpoms were ammonia from something like SIBO, because disulfiram does not affect the microbiome. And again disulfiram hits babesia very hard we suspect due to Dr. L's study...

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2994845

A member ccpoly made a great post about ammonia and borrelia.

And I suspect the reason many of us don't herx like some do in the under our skin documentaries, is because we haven't knocked back babesia back enough. Now that I finally have after 8 years, I finally know what it's like to suffer a seizure and tremors that the lyme patients experienced from the under our skin docs like Mandy Hughes. It's very likely the herx toxins and ammonia are the reason for seizures. I mean we all suspected the herx toxins caused the seizures, but what particular toxin does it? I'd say probably the ammonia.

So I think the smart thing for me to do would probably remove minocycline from my bartonella protocol for now, just use bactrim and omnicef. As it seems for me, with the increase in herxing, the ammonia is just building up more in my system. Sometimes you have to take it slow with treating this disease, especially when bartonella is in the picture...

Also girlie, it may be the fact that you many of us might have to allow your body to heal it's autoimmunity state it's in, inflammation, immune system, and overall health before something like babesia gets put into remission instead of just constantly bombarding it with antiparasiticdrugs and herbs, I suspect the biofilms also play a role with how slow the progression of erradicating these coinfections is as well. Again, some compare it to peeling layers on an onion. Don't get me wrong, I think treatment can be cut in half by using persister cell drugs like dapsone and daraprim, treatment cut down even more with something like disulfiram, but it still may take are body and immune system still a few years to recover...

A lot of good posts in that HealingWell.com Ammonia thread, like this one from Deejavu...

Deejavu said...


I think anyone who has lyme bacteria also has ammonia (I think everyone has different levels). From an article that Dr. Jernigan wrote:

As written below:

Borrelia burgdorferi, one of the primary causative agents in Lyme disease, actually release or cause the accumulation of ammonia as their primary neurotoxin. The ammonia accumulates in the brain tissues, some of which is converted to glutamine, by way of the glutamine synthetase pathways, leading to localized swelling of astrocytes (brain cells). This ammonia-induced glutamine accumulation may cause dysfunction of astrocytes that leads to impairment of vascular reactivity other than through a decrease in arginine availability for NOS leading to increased production of nitric oxide (Toshiki 2000).

For almost a century it has been understood that a healthy body is slightly alkaline at a pH of 7.4. Great cures have been achieved and the healing protocols of some of the most celebrated physicians and healers are based upon medicines and diets that strive to create a more alkaline environment within the body. However too much of a good thing, such as being too alkaline, is equally harmful.

Innumerable books and articles have touted what seemed to be a universal law that if one had a chronic or degenerative illness that the person would be labeled “acidic.” This idea would be supported by litmus testing of the saliva and urine, both of which might be acidic.

It was quite by accident, as is the case with most healing revelations, that I discovered that virtually every Lyme disease patient, MS, CFIDS, ALS, Parkinson’s, Autistic, and so many other Lyme-related illnesses were suffering from the neurotoxin, ammonia. The importance of this new discovery is that ammonia is very alkaline at a pH of 10 and is debatably the direct or indirect cause of virtually every symptom.

Many of these people were acidic according to Litmus analysis of their saliva and urine, but according to Direct Resonance Testing (DRT) they all had peculiar and very predictable localized accumulations of ammonia in their liver, heart, teeth, and brain. The exception to this is ALS patients who I discovered, and has subsequently been confirmed by other doctors, have a unique mixed infection that creates excessive accumulations of ammonia throughout the entire body.

I discovered that Borrelia burgdorferi, one of the primary causative agents in Lyme disease, actually release or cause the accumulation of ammonia as their primary neurotoxin. The ammonia accumulates in the brain tissues, some of which is converted to glutamine, by way of the glutamine synthetase pathways, leading to localized swelling of astrocytes (brain cells). This ammonia-induced glutamine accumulation may cause dysfunction of astrocytes that leads to impairment of vascular reactivity other than through a decrease in arginine availability for NOS leading to increased production of nitric oxide (Toshiki 2000).

It has been reported that many neurological problems are caused by either congenital or acquired hyper-ammonemia (Albrecht 1998).

All of the ammonia-related pathological changes predispose these individuals to cerebral allergies. These cerebral allergies are actually hypersensitivity reactions due to alterations in the blood brain barrier creating Leaky Brain Syndrome, a term I coined for when the blood brain barrier subsequently allowing larger than normal molecules, such as common dietary amino acids, to pass through to the brain. The over-alkalinity of the brain, as well as the Leaky Brain Syndrome from the bacterial-induced ammonia cause damage to neurotransmitter receptors and function is impaired and possibly the most common symptom – altered brain energy metabolism leading to cognitive brain dysfunctions, the total fatigue of the mind when forced to read, talk, or think for extended periods.

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/21/2019 3:36:05 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/21/2019 9:38 PM (GMT 0)
I did the stupid thing of using stevia with half a tablet of country life kekp/iodine with mino/bactrim/omnicef, lets just say I'll never do that again. Again, sometimes you have to go slow. As the ammonia levels go back down, maybe I'll slip some half a tablet of kelp, and a tiny bit of stevia with omnicef/bactrim on occasion. But for now, I don't want to end up in the ER....

I suspect kelp is a huge biofilm busters that many LLMDs and patients aren't using and could be using, I've found that combining kelp with stevia is quite powerful in inducing a powerful herx and raising ammonia levels. You can always buy a pill splitter and reduce the amount of kelp you take.

"Povidone-iodine ointment demonstrates in vitro efficacy against biofilm formation."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26968574

Anyways, going to take it slow for now...

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/21/2019 3:43:37 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/21/2019 11:21 PM (GMT 0)

sandyfeet said...
What’s the dosing for molybdenum Jay?

I noticed that it was in the multi that Rawls has which I tried for a month but never noticed any difference while I was taking it. It had 50 mcg.

I'm taking 500mg twice a day. So that 50mcg you were taking was barely nothing.
Posted 9/22/2019 1:37 AM (GMT 0)
Re: liver cleanses, I do a coffee enema once a day which stimulates bile production
Posted 9/22/2019 9:28 AM (GMT 0)

Charlie55 said...

Georgia Hunter said...

And just a thought, I really suspect the anxiety/OCD/PANS/Intrusive thoughts is a lot more severe from bartonella than someone just suffering from SIBO...


Everyone that has symptoms from bartonella has SIBO or they wouldn't have bartonella issues. Without other issues, bartonella is harmless because our immune response takes care of it. It's like toxoplasmosis in that it doesn't cause an issue unless something else is going wrong.
Posted 9/22/2019 3:36 PM (GMT 0)
My son who has lyme and does a lot of research, talked to me about L’ornithine, somI tried it, by itself, not with l’arginine because I canot take it because it activates the herpes virus.
So I started sleeping a little better and noticing that I have not been so foggy as before. Somedays I woke up foggy, did my research and bought it at amazon from B..., just wanted to let u know.
Posted 9/22/2019 11:44 PM (GMT 0)
It seems the very best treatment for ammonia in the head seems to be a sauna or bath... Like sitting in the bath, closing off the door or shower curtain, keep the window partially open, build up enough heat and steam to get down in the tub and keep your head close in enough to the water where you can get a good head sweat going.

I start to see how many use these portable saunas, but as you can see, keeps your head from sweating so defeats the purpose...
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=portable+sauna&crid=3nga72mqo0etx&sprefix=porable+sau%2caps%2c246&ref=nb_sb_ss_sc_1_11

Maybe I'll think about joining a private gym with a sauna, last thing I want to do though is pass out or herx, lol... Saunas get pretty hot...

I think I'm going to drop the inositol, seems to give me vivid nightmares for last couple of days that just came on spontaneously, as well as restlessness and kind of a depersonalization. Another member on LymeNet.org reported about these vivid dreams... I suspect I ramped up too quickly, but it did to seem to make me feel better and give me energy, but really that's what I'm not looking for
https://mentalhealthdaily.com/2016/01/02/inositol-side-effects-adverse-reactions-list/

Anyways, I still suspect all these neuro symptoms that spontaneously came on are directly from bartonella and increased ammonia in the head. So if I'm just masking the symptoms with something like Inositol and not treating the source of the problem, which is removing the ammonia from my head, I suspect that could be a big problem just like xanax or other ssri drugs are for lyme patients and can lead to problems down the road. And I wonder if your body starts depending on inositol and then soon as you get off, you have kind of a withdrawal like patients do with xanax, then it leads to a panic attack. I think Georgia Hunter said it best in another thread, trying to get vitamin B8 from oranges, lemons, and cantaloupe probably be a safer option.
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3842510

Georgia Hunter said...


I would eat foods high in linolenic acid that were not soy related. I would eat foods high in manganese. I would eat foods high in inositol like oranges or cantaloupe. It sounds like a Wahl's diet.

I've never been the type of person that tries to mask symptoms, but rather find out what directly caused them for them to suddenly sprout up. I get it, something like inositol can help treat OCD while you treat with antibiotics, but what if you're not detoxing your head from the ammonia that may be causing these neurological problems in the first place, whether it's bartonella or borrelia.

For me, so far the best treatment seems to be the warm baths, getting my "head" and body to sweat, baking soda water lemon drinks, and exercising to sweat as well.

I'm going to give this Allergy Research L-Ornithine-L-Aspartate a chance, see if it works better and I tolerate it betteran than the Vitamin Shoppe version of L-Ornithine-L-Arginine, as well as Yucca root.

I read Girlie also make the statement how baths seem to be the best detox for her as well, seems to be the best for a lot of lyme patients, but I think if you can get your head to sweat more in the tub, that can extremely help detoxing if you have neurological symptoms from borrelia or bartonella. I have a small bathroom so building up steam is very easy. And again, keeping your bath's door or shower sealed properly can build up steam really fast.

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/22/2019 5:59:35 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 9/22/2019 11:55 PM (GMT 0)
“I'm going to give this Allergy Research L-Ornithine-L-Aspartate a chance, see if it works better than the Vitamin Shoppe version of L-Ornithine-L-Arginine, as well as Yucca root.

I read Girlie also make the statement how baths seem to be the best detox for her as well, seems to be the best for a lot of lyme patients, but I think if you can get your body and head to sweat more in the tub, that can extremely help detoxing. I have a small bathroom so building up steam is very easy. And again, keeping your bath's door or shower sealed properly can build up steam really fast.”

I’m ordering another bottle of the LOLA - I did go through one bottle of it - but not sure if it really helped - but I think that was when I was still doing the Persister meds and I was prob creating more ammonia than the LOLA was removing.

So now I’m only taking meds 4 days a month and I still have some head pressure - I’ve been off the meds for over a week and I’ve still got some head stuff going on.

We’ll see how it works - I’ll take it consistently this time - instead of waiting for symptoms to happen.


One of the reasons I like the baths is because I’m always cold - and then my nerves ramp up - so the warm baths feel great.
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