Is "herxheimer reaction" a real, recognized term in mainstream medicine?

Sooo frustrating!!!

How can I have Post Lyme when I still have intense herxing after 16 months of oral antibiotics!?!

Preaching to the choir I guess...

https:// https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc5239707/

1000Daisies I agree. Herxing doesn't last longer than an acute flare.

"shouldn't herx for months and months"

What if you had neuro Lyme and kept taking oral antibiotics that could not cross the blood brain barrier and kill the Lyme. So the oral antibiotics kept causing ongoing herx because the Lyme is hiding in the brain where only IV antibiotics can get. Oral antibiotics for Neuro Lyme is enough to cause strong herx, but not enough to kill the Lyme, causing ongoing herx...

Maybe?

The Baby Boomer Doctors are too busy counting their money from handing out opioids like candy and the millennial Doctors are too far in debt from student loans to give a crap what the hell a hexheimer reaction is or who it was named after. Yet you ask them about Lyme Disease, they know exactly what the disease is, their eyes immediately role and think psychosomatic nut. We got a great thread going on about this by Astroman, check it out Lostcoast.
https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4150826

I still like what this surfer dude said about Western Medicine...

"Some of the Dumbest Smart People.." lol Basically what's going on in a nut shell
https://youtu.be/fvzd1lrc7xi?t=259

Hey surfer dude, put a shirt on, man!!!!!!!

CDC estimates 300,000 infected each year with Lyme, probably even more than that now.. Yet these morons don't even know what a herxheimer reaction is. I wonder how many people go in the ER complaining of seizures, shakes, and anxiety all from lyme herxheimer reaction. It's all quite disturbing when you start thinking deeper about it...

Post Edited (Charlie55) : 9/25/2019 3:23:12 AM (GMT-6)

JovaLyme said...

WalkingbyFaith said...
https:// https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc5239707/

The link won't work for me for some reason.

I read research and studies on that site all the time and it seems to be fairly reliable.

Would I be right in thinking the study provides evidence of "herxing" being a genuine medical condition?

Sorry. Just checked and it didn’t work for me either. I found it again by going to PubMed and searching the PMC number at the end of the url. You can try that to read the whole article. I have pasted the Abstract section below.
_______________
Abstract

Within 24 hours after antibiotic treatment of the spirochetal infections syphilis, Lyme disease, leptospirosis, and relapsing fever (RF), patients experience shaking chills, a rise in temperature, and intensification of skin rashes known as the Jarisch–Herxheimer reaction (JHR) with symptoms resolving a few hours later. Case reports indicate that the JHR can also include uterine contractions in pregnancy, worsening liver and renal function, acute respiratory distress syndrome, myocardial injury, hypotension, meningitis, alterations in consciousness, seizures, and strokes. Experimental evidence indicates it is caused by nonendotoxin pyrogen and spirochetal lipoproteins. Mediation of the JHR in RF by the pro-inflammatory cytokines tumor necrosis factor (TNF), interleukin (IL)-6, and IL-8 has been proposed, consistent with measurements in patients' blood and inhibition by anti-TNF antibodies. Accelerated phagocytosis of spirochetes by polymorphonuclear (PMN) leukocytes before rise in cytokines is responsible for removal of organisms from the blood, suggesting an early inflammatory signal from PMNs. Rarely fatal, except in neonates and in pregnancy for African women whose babies showed high perinatal mortality because of low birth weight, the JHR can be regarded as an adverse effect of antibiotics, necessary for achieving a cure of spirochetal infections.

Excellent link! Thanks for posting!

Lostcoast said...
Girlie:
Yes. Herx is a reation of the body to OSPA. OSPA is released when Lyme is attacked and/or killed. Right?

So I have a population of Lyme in my brain, oral antibiotics can't kill them to erradicaye the infection. They can only kill the Lyme in my body causing herx, but they can't kill them all because they are replaced from the protected population in my brain, and the herxing goes on and on.

I herxed for 16 months of oral antibiotics. It was herx for sure, an unmistakable and drastic increase in symptoms, a very toxic, horrible feeling. I had zero reaction to antibiotics before I got Lyme. And the herx would lesson or go away if I took a break from antibiotics. Antibiotics, like clockwork, make me feel horrible.....that's an active infection. Right?

Even the CDC admits that some times with Neuro and cardiac Lyme, iv is required because it crosses the blood brain barrier much better.

So according to the CDC, I received insufficient treatment. Enough to feel like sh#$!, But not enough to kill the Lyme in my brain.

Plausable?

Oral abx can and do kill the lyme in the brain.
In particular minocycline penetrates b/b barrier we’ll.

Are you saying no one gets better - ie in remission unless they do IV abx?
I know that isn’t true.

herx is a real reaction, well documented in the medical field

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/jarisch–herxheimer_reaction

Lukehart, Sheila A. (2017). "Syphilis". In Kasper, Dennis L.; Fauci, Anthony S. (eds.). Harrison's Infectious Diseases (3 ed.). New York: Mc Graw-Hill. p. 666. ISBN 978-1-259-83597-1.
Belum GR, Belum VR, Chaitanya Arudra SK, Reddy BS (2013). "The Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction: revisited". Travel Medicine and Infectious Disease. 11 (4): 231–7. doi:10.1016/j.tmaid.2013.04.001. PMID 23632012.
Butler T (2017). "The Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction After Antibiotic Treatment of Spirochetal Infections: A Review of Recent Cases and Our Understanding of Pathogenesis". The American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene. 96 (1): 46–52. doi:10.4269/ajtmh.16-0434. PMC 5239707. PMID 28077740.
Vidal V, Scragg IG, Cutler SJ, et al. (December 1998). "Variable major lipoprotein is a principal TNF-inducing factor of louse-borne relapsing fever". Nat. Med. 4 (12): 1416–20. doi:10.1038/4007. PMID 9846580.
Kaplanski G, Granel B, Vaz T, Durand JM (July 1998). "Jarisch–Herxheimer reaction complicating the treatment of chronic Q fever endocarditis: elevated TNFalpha and IL-6 serum levels". J. Infect. 37 (1): 83–4. doi:10.1016/S0163-4453(98)91120-3. PMID 9733392.
Fekade, D; Knox, K; Hussein, K; Melka, A; Lalloo, DG; Coxon, RE; Warrell, DA (Aug 1, 1996). "Prevention of Jarisch–Herxheimer reactions by treatment with antibodies against tumor necrosis factor alpha". The New England Journal of Medicine. 335 (5): 311–5. doi:10.1056/NEJM199608013350503. PMID 8663853.
Coxon, RE; Fekade, D; Knox, K; Hussein, K; Melka, A; Daniel, A; Griffin, GG; Warrell, DA (Mar 1997). "The effect of antibody against TNF alpha on cytokine response in Jarisch–Herxheimer reactions of louse-borne relapsing fever" (PDF). QJM : Monthly Journal of the Association of Physicians. 90 (3): 213–21. doi:10.1093/qjmed/90.3.213. PMID 9093599.
Jarisch A (1895). "Therapeutische Versuche bei Syphilis". Wien Med Wochenschr. 45: 721–42.
Herxheimer K, Krause D (1902). "Ueber eine bei Syphilitischen vorkommende Quecksilberreaktion". Deutsche Medizinische Wochenschrift. 28 (50): 895–7. doi:10.1055/s-0028-1139096.
"The Jarisch–Herxheimer reaction". Lancet. 1 (8007): 340–1. February 1977. doi:10.1016/s0140-6736(77)91140-0. PMC 1056841. PMID 64863.

Lostcoast said...
No. I know oral antibiotics work for early stage Lyme, but at some point the Lyme goes to late stage, and in late stage Lyme, IV is much more effective.
I'm saying I and maybe others might be late stage and needing IV. " Some times late stage disseminated Lyme requires IV" -CDC.
So it looks like for those of us with Neuro and cardiac symptoms....IV is the proper treatment.

I don't trust the CDC either, so if even they admit some of us need IV, that's them admitting that sometimes oral can leave an active infection behind.

I don't think IV is going to cure me either. But it should be more effective than oral, and is officially the proper treatment now for disseminated Lyme.

Who says it's 'officially' the proper treatment now for disseminated lyme?
You wrote that the CDC states: "Sometimes late stage disseminated lyme requires IV" key word "sometimes"

Lostcoast said...
When would that sometimes be, if not when Neuro and cardiac symptoms are present, and oral antibiotics have failed?

All I’m saying is all patients - who have late stage Lyme do not require iv abx.
People with late stage Lyme can and do get well on orals.

The people I know personally who are in remission have not been on IV abx.

Lostcoast said...
I totally agree Girlie. Lyme is so individual and unique to each of us, there is no silver bullet that works for everybody.

I am just frustrated that the mainstream medical community acted like there was nothing they could do before turning me loose to fend for myself. Clearly, even according to the CDC, IV is an option. Sometimes.

It would have been really nice to try the 28 days of IV before I did 16 months of oral antibiotics, 8 months of Buhner, and about 6 months of BVT. Because who knows, it might have worked.

So now, after being sick for over 3 years, I finally have a mainstream doc considering putting me on IV.

I'm not going to get my hopes up it will work, but it's worth a try...

Honestly - 28 days of iv abx will not put chronic Lyme and co’s Into remission.
There would need to be many months of orals after...

Dr J prescribes IV abx for at least 6-9 months to treat chronic Lyme. Then it’s followed with orals.
I did get some info on it - patients need to go to the J clinic every 6 weeks even if they are treating at home.