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Posted 12/31/2019 5:57 AM (GMT 0)
Unfortunately the WB can't determine whether it's a new or older infection.

I was IgM positive after about 16 months of lyme symptoms.

IgM can be new...or an older infection. Dr. J explained it as a continual reactivation.
Posted 12/31/2019 10:51 PM (GMT 0)
I’m guessing that my doctor was basing it off my old vague symptoms and new symptoms after my trip to Maine/and hiking in MA...etc. She thinks I had an old infection due to my vague symptoms and new infection mainly diagnosed clinically. I’m sure it’s all speculation since there’s no certainty.

The only thing I can think is why she thought new infection is looking at my labs is because I was negative x 2 and then tested positive. I had band 41 the first 2 and more showed up after 6 months. I know that it often doesn’t show up or can take a long time/testing isn’t the best. She did state that I can remain positive like you said. Either way I herx with an new herbs and or antibiotic and have neurological and cardiac issues from it so I just want it gone 🤪
Posted 12/31/2019 10:52 PM (GMT 0)
Happy New Year! 🥳 Good health for everyone in 2020 🤞🙏
Posted 1/12/2020 5:36 AM (GMT 0)
The first - line of defense is Alliciin and Artemesia

Girlie said...
Is Zhangs protocol Houttuynia and Allicin?

Post Edited (PandaFox) : 1/11/2020 11:23:04 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 1/12/2020 5:51 AM (GMT 0)
I am new to this forum. I had an exposure sometime in July 19, started Doxy In September and did 6 weeks. The last two weeks on doxy I started working with Zhang and taking herbs. I'm still working with him. The first three months were hell. I think I herxed for three months straight. I was in New York so I was able to see him in person and his assistant, whom I love. It's been really confusing to me, and I'm constantly wondering if I am doing the right thing or if I should take more abx, but I'm staying herbal for now. I'm pretty sure I have babesia as well, not sure about bart.
I did 2 months of Allicin and Artemesia - but I was taking a ton of supplements and my gut was overburdened and I wasn't able to digest the Allicin anymore.
So they switched me to Coptis and I stayed on Artemesia - for the past 6 weeks - and I cut out almost all the supplements, for better or worse. My gut is still leaky, but that's a topic for another thread. They give you proprietary blends of supportive herbs for circulation, anti-inflammation and autoimmune as well. I have no idea what is in them. He talks about a lot of other herbs in his book, but it's very technical and I only absorb so much.
We are going to switch to a stronger Artemesia in Feb. I think in general they do an herb for 2 months and then switch. And with each new herb there is a herx. I herxed when I started the Coptis, but it was nothing like what I had been through before.
My symptoms are still: swollen knees, tender wrists and ankles, migrating pains in arms, tingles in nose occasionally, some ear ringing, brain fog, fatigue, and a totally messed up gut.
I only just learned about this forum and I want to thank you all so much. This is the most challenging, difficult thing I've ever been though and it's very heartening to read how supportive everyone is.

Post Edited (PandaFox) : 1/11/2020 11:26:57 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 1/12/2020 5:55 PM (GMT 0)
From what I’ve heard especially if your “load” (various pathogens) is high and if it’s working the first three months are usually the worse. However you should slowly show improvement if you’re on the right protocol. It could be a detox issue too.

Did they try that AI #3 with you? That’s supposed to help with herxing. I read their book. I don’t clear toxins well so I herx easily. I would detox a lot if I were you. I didn’t at first and learned the hard way.

There’s good herxes where you increase symptoms and improve a little. Then there are bad herxes where your symptoms worsen and you don’t improve. I would keep a detailed diary to see the trend. Since the symptoms are all over the place you forget that you were worse a couple months ago, etc. especially since it can be a super slow process with lots of ups and downs that mess with your head.

Saunas (infrared esp), Epsom baths, Alka seltzer gold, glutathione, various supplements can help.

I had a crisis in October and went backwards after strong antibiotics. I started back on herbs and I am slowly improving. I however have grown to really read my body and when Zhangs protocol talks about microcirculation and circulation in general, plus healing, broad spectrum herbs it resonated with me. My guts saying to try it.

I haven’t spoken to many people on Zhangs protocol. I did message a girl that did his protocol for 8 months and she’s been symptom free since 2015 so it does work for some. I guess just listen to your body and let them know what’s going on.

I hope this helps. I have a phone consultation on Monday and if everyone sounds good I’ll start next week. Message me if you have questions. We are all learning even the experts don’t have all the answers.
Posted 1/12/2020 6:24 PM (GMT 0)
My symptoms are mostly neurological:

I have sleeve-like/glove sensations mainly on left side that migrate. They go on the right too at times. I get left back of the head aching that intensifies at times. I used to get he’s pressure more, I do still at times. Tingling, crawling, numbness on and off. Dizziness, drunken feeling, equilibrium issues. Can’t sit or stand long periods of time. Heart rate increases, was having SVT and POTS with numbness. That’s improving but I still have a higher than normal heart rate. constipation, thinning hair, skin issues. Weakness on and off. This mist goes on and on. 🤪

I was slowly improving and then when backwards a lot. Now I’m improving again but it’s been a long journey.

I’m on a beta blocker right now to help the heart from overworking. MRI of the heart soon to make sure there’s no cardiac involvement. Definitely neurological Lyme. Plus Bartonella. I’m thinking I possibly have babesia too.
Posted 1/12/2020 6:26 PM (GMT 0)
If there’s cardiac involvement I’ll definitely have to push for IV but if not I’m going to proceed with Zhangs. Either way my cardiac symptoms are improving on the herbs. Neuro too slowly.
Posted 1/12/2020 10:36 PM (GMT 0)
Oh BTW the flow chart they have in the book states that if you’re herxing a lot you lower the dose and add the AI #3. I’m doing this off of memory. Check your book. So make sure they know in case they need to adjust or add stuff to your protocol.

PandaFox said...
I am new to this forum. I had an exposure sometime in July 19, started Doxy In September and did 6 weeks. The last two weeks on doxy I started working with Zhang and taking herbs. I'm still working with him. The first three months were hell. I think I herxed for three months straight. I was in New York so I was able to see him in person and his assistant, whom I love. It's been really confusing to me, and I'm constantly wondering if I am doing the right thing or if I should take more abx, but I'm staying herbal for now. I'm pretty sure I have babesia as well, not sure about bart.
I did 2 months of Allicin and Artemesia - but I was taking a ton of supplements and my gut was overburdened and I wasn't able to digest the Allicin anymore.
So they switched me to Coptis and I stayed on Artemesia - for the past 6 weeks - and I cut out almost all the supplements, for better or worse. My gut is still leaky, but that's a topic for another thread. They give you proprietary blends of supportive herbs for circulation, anti-inflammation and autoimmune as well. I have no idea what is in them. He talks about a lot of other herbs in his book, but it's very technical and I only absorb so much.
We are going to switch to a stronger Artemesia in Feb. I think in general they do an herb for 2 months and then switch. And with each new herb there is a herx. I herxed when I started the Coptis, but it was nothing like what I had been through before.
My symptoms are still: swollen knees, tender wrists and ankles, migrating pains in arms, tingles in nose occasionally, some ear ringing, brain fog, fatigue, and a totally messed up gut.
I only just learned about this forum and I want to thank you all so much. This is the most challenging, difficult thing I've ever been though and it's very heartening to read how supportive everyone is.

Posted 1/13/2020 3:48 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks F*Lyme. I really do feel good about the Zhang protocol. Zhang himself has been working with lyme patients for 25 years - so he's really seen everything. He's older but he's still with it. He's in China now, but you will probably speak to Phyllis. They are quick and no-nonsense about everything - which I appreciate. They seem very confident. Also that book was written a while ago, and I think they have changed the treatment flow slightly - or maybe mine was specific to me - I have/had babs symptoms but not so much bart.
In the beginning when I was taking the Allicin sometimes I would reek of garlic. I was also taking AI#3 and Circulation P at that time. Zhang later said if the garlic smell was really intense I wasn't digesting it properly - so that is when I cut back on the supplements and switched to Coptis. They reduced AI#3 and switched the Circulation P to a chinese blend for fatigue - because that was my biggest complaint. My energy has definitely increased since I started taking that.
Since mid-December I have started to see improvement. When I switched to the Coptis I had a herx which I felt like it was a "good herx" for about 10 days - old symptoms came back, and other symptoms got worse - which is a real mind**** - you have to tell yourself over and over that this is normal and it will pass. I had this intense ringing in my ears on and off all day - and the migrating pains in my arms got really intense and painful - somehow at the same time I felt like I was improving overall. And after the herx ended those symptoms have decreased a lot. I detoxed like crazy the whole time.

In general, their philosophy is less is more. They want to give you as much supportive herbs as anti-pathogenic herbs, so that your body can do the work on it's own. At the same time they are not totally against abx, and realize in more severe cases more is needed. It was very scary to put my faith in them, as I am so used to western docs. I wonder if I would be getting better faster if I did some intense abx - but the reality is there is no quick fix, as we all know, and it's just a slow process.

I spend about $350/mo on herbs - but all the follow up appointments are no charge - and the initial one is $150. I has an appointment with a lyme doc in Manhattan that was $1500!! I don't have a lot of money but he came highly recommended. I cancelled it when I found Zhang - so to me he seems reasonable. Let us know how it goes! I haven't been at this very long - but I think a big part of this is trusting people who are helping you.....

Post Edited (PandaFox) : 1/12/2020 8:57:20 PM (GMT-7)

Posted 1/13/2020 10:33 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks for all the information! I really appreciate it. That helps a lot. This is definitely a roller coaster. It messes with your head... I’m getting better, worse, feel a little better, herx...on and on.

If you’re slowly improving and responding I would definitely stick with it but you know your body more than anyone. My problem is that I’m impatient. It’s hard to just stick to a protocol because in the back of your mind ... could this other one help me more. Etc.

I was told that this protocol takes a minimum of 6 - 8 months. For me I prefer natural herbs if they work because they are gentler and heal at the same time. I however know that there’s a possibility I may have to go back on antibiotics. I just hope I’m the 60% that become symptom free/remission. That was in his book so I don’t don’t what there numbers are up this date.

I definitely don’t make a lot right now. I was out of work 6 months and now I’m barely working a seated part time position. I had to move back home since I can’t work as much. Mine is starting at $450/mo so it will be tight. I was on Cobra and that ended so I am able to make it work.

I had a consultation today and I should start Thursday night or Friday. I’ll keep you posted.

It’s a very scary experience and the hardest thing I’ve ever been through.
Posted 1/13/2020 10:46 PM (GMT 0)
Yeah I'm going to stick with it. You can email them anytime and they will respond pretty quickly. I think they are good people.

I also read that 60% number and was not super psyched to read that - but yes, better to just assume you will be in that percentage, that's what I try and do. They also see a lot of difficult cases and age and general wellness and resilience play a part.

I also tell myself - if I can get through this, I will be able to get through anything. Hang in there and I will too!
Posted 2/1/2020 2:57 AM (GMT 0)
Started Zhangs Protocol recently. I’m in week two. After a few days I noticed my symptoms being stirred up. I’m taking an herb to help with possible herxing AI#3, Circ P for circulation, Allicin for Lyme and Bart (wide microbial coverage), HH for Bart - also has coverage for Lyme too. I am starting to smell like garlic. Some people can’t tolerate it, but it’s not too bad. Maybe people around me may not feel the same way 🤪

This week my symptoms were a little more intense than last week. It comes in waves. Waves of “die off”. When I did my phone consultation they said people can often herx week 2-4. 🤞I hope I’m not leading up to a big herx. Trying to detox a lot to prevent that.

Charcoal, Epsom baths, sauna chlorella, etc. 🙏’s

I’ll keep you posted on my progress
Posted 2/1/2020 3:19 AM (GMT 0)
Hi F*Lyme. I was wondering how you were doing. I'm starting a new herb Sunday, Artemisia2 - it's stronger than the other Artemisia I have been taking. I'm hoping I won't be in for a big herx too - but I gotta do it. I can say I'm not looking forward to it. The last week a lot of my symptoms have subsided and I've had more energy, but I'm still pretty limited. I think the Allicin is pretty strong and effective. I hope it's helpful.

The die-off definitely comes in waves. You just have to breath through it.
Posted 2/1/2020 3:31 AM (GMT 0)
It was scary at first. I think the Bartonella was hiding out some on my right side. I mostly have symptoms on my left with right on and off. Since I started treatment I’ll get waves on one side then the other. My right was getting weak on and off, so it was scary. I had that happen a few times but this was more frequent. Plus the painful joints are acting up. It’s seems to be doing it’s thing but it’s definitely a hard process.

I’m getting waves of full body “die off” and then intense symptoms if that makes sense.

If I’m correct you have Lyme and Babesia. They San both cause intense die off. They think it’s possible I have babesia too but most of my symptoms are Lyme and Bartonella so we’re focusing on that and seeing how I do. The good thing is the symptoms have been intensified so it must be targeting the right “bugs”.

Keep me posted. Yes Allicin seems very strong.. the smell too 🤪 I’m on HH too so I’ll prob go on the HH2 eventually.

Good luck and keep me posted.
Posted 2/1/2020 3:36 AM (GMT 0)
Oh btw. Most people can’t smell the garlic on me. Right now it’s subtle. Some people smell it slightly. If it gets bad that means I’m not digesting it right?
Posted 2/1/2020 3:44 AM (GMT 0)
Thank you! I will.

Yep, Lyme and Babesia. Herxing is such a mind*****. You just have to tell yourself over and over that you are killing them off and that you are going to get better. That it's a process and you are getting better. That's what I try to do!
Posted 2/1/2020 3:49 AM (GMT 0)
This feels like good herxes because I have waves and then it eases up. When I was on antibiotics I was in a constant herx and my body went into crisis mode. I couldn’t tolerate it. I think my load was really high too so that didn’t help.

🤞🙏 We don’t herx too badly, but yes die off is a good thing. Means it’s working 👍 I always try to look at the positive too. It’s hard sometimes though 🤪 We can do this. On bad days I try and meditate and take a bath
Posted 2/1/2020 3:50 AM (GMT 0)
Goodnight! Kept me posted. I’ll try to do weekly updates. My Lyme brain forgets sometimes.
Posted 2/1/2020 4:36 AM (GMT 0)

PandaFox said...
Hi F*Lyme. I was wondering how you were doing. I'm starting a new herb Sunday, Artemisia2 - it's stronger than the other Artemisia I have been taking. I'm hoping I won't be in for a big herx too - it.

I believe Zhang Artemisiae-2 is the strongest you can buy over the
counter. It's dihydroartemisinin. Prepare for a herx!
Posted 2/1/2020 5:36 AM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...

PandaFox said...
Hi F*Lyme. I was wondering how you were doing. I'm starting a new herb Sunday, Artemisia2 - it's stronger than the other Artemisia I have been taking. I'm hoping I won't be in for a big herx too - it.

I believe Zhang Artemisiae-2 is the strongest you can buy over the
counter. It's dihydroartemisinin. Prepare for a herx!

Yeah I know it's strong. I wonder if it's too strong, but I guess the point is to kill them. Zhang is in China, (worried about the coronovirus!), and Phyllis is switching the herb. She is very good, but it is an art form and I wonder if Zhang would do the same thing. She seems more aggressive in her approach, though I truly enjoy her. If I herx too badly I will call her and maybe we will reduce the dosage.
Posted 2/1/2020 5:44 AM (GMT 0)
Well, I have not yet mastered how to respond to a quote - but that's ok!

F*Lyme - Phyllis told me that if I smell a lot of garlic I am not digesting it well. She told me that when I was having a lot of other GI issues at the same time....I don't think I was digesting anything well. And she and Zhang recommend chlorophyll to cut the garlic smell - there is an inconsistency there. So it's not really clear to me.
Posted 2/6/2021 6:41 PM (GMT 0)
I am curious to hear how you guys are doing on the zhang. I have been sick YEARS and wish Iwould have tried zhang a long time ago. I am going to call monday to try to get in. Is Zhang himself not there taking patients? bummer. But I will do whatever the perosn who is there suggests. I have severe breathing issues ( babesia type) and other issues and it is not getting better- years and years is the Zhang working for you? F lyme did you actually speak w zhang or someone else? has your herxing lessened, any improvements?
Posted 2/8/2021 4:37 AM (GMT 0)
Hi flowergarden,
I emailed you back - but I just thought I would write something here for the thread. Phyllis is the woman who will monitor your dosing. Dr. Zhang does it too - but I think Phyllis is better at tracking your symptoms and adjusting dosages. The protocol helped me tremendously. At this point it's been 14 months and I feel like the infection is pretty under control (knock on wood) - but I still have joint inflammation and fatigue - which are big symptoms I know. I think at this point it might be due to detox pathways clogged and my central nervous system - which has a hard time calming down. I still take some of their herbs, and am also using some of Buhners herbs for my joints. Feel free to ask any more questions!
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