Let's Talk About Mitochondria

Has anyone noticed positive effects from treating mitochondrial dysfunction directly?

What have you tried for mitochondrial support?

I have Lyme and fatigue with PEM has been my most debilitating symptom.
it's improving slowly now - but I do mean slowly

I take pretty much everything in the list above
the things that I think help me the most are

-ketogenic diet ( surprisingly my energy is way better eating like this - I think the ATP cycle is more efficient )
-the buhner herbs for Lyme and CO-INFECTIONS ( includes cordyceps, motherwort, rhodiola, Chinese skullcap root, kudzu)
-buhners adaptogens - eleuthero, Rhodiola, ashwagandha
-supplements - acetyl-l-carnitine, CoQ-10, alpha lipoic acid, Methy B12, B complex, Nicotinamide, NAC,
(I was taking reduced glutathione as a capsule but its expensive and i did not find any benefit over its precursers NAC and alpha lipoic acid )

Dr Sarah Myhill is a UK registered GP who works specifically with CFS and has written extensively about it as a mitochondrial disorder. and PEM is a central symptom of CFS - but CFS isnt really a diagnosis as many things can cause CFS with PEM - as many on this forum will testify. Myhill also recommends Keto to CFS patents

certainly, too much exercise with PEM will do harm - some people with CFS report severe attacks of PEM after exertion that they never recover from! so that is real.
but at the same time, too little will lead to wastage and poorer health outcomes.
to manage this there is a theory of an exercise "envelope".
a space t exercise in that is enough to stimulate physical conditioning - but not enough to induce PEM

when I was healthy I had a very wide envelope i could exercise from just a little to 5hrs continuously
with a chronic illness, that envelope is narrower - I can walk 4 miles and do a few chores in a day - but more than that and I will be worse tomorrow. so I gradually work to increase my walking pace and add a little more strength exercises into my routine

Dr. Burrascano advises all his Lyme patients to do resistance training and feels its v v important to recovery. he and some others believe the musculature works something like an immune system organ and to get well you need it in good condition.
He advises only non-aerobic strength exercises - initially 1x per week - working up to no more than 1x every other day - and emphasized the importance of total rest on rest days.

Garzie: I've enjoyed reading your posts here and elsewhere... I've read that CFS patients generally have a low sedimentation rate (blood test). Might this be where a distinction can be made with Lyme patients who suffer PEM? I've personally been high the 2 times I've been tested.

On Dr B's advice.. Lifting weights doesn't give me nearly as much trouble as cardio. I think it has something to do with the mitochondria using glycogen as a fuel source while the heart rate is lower vs. using fatty acids as a fuel source while heart rate is higher.

insomniaaa: Many antibiotics are known to cause mitochondrial damage, as you're speculating. Azithromycin is one that can and is commonly prescribed in Lyme treatments. Disulfiram, while not an antibiotic in the traditional sense, can also cause mitochondrial damage.

I don't know anything about stem cell therapy or how much the previosly mentioned herbs can do, but fasting can help mitochondrial issues through autophagy.. and it shares benefits with the ketogenic diet, as Garzie had suggested.

I recently did a 5 day water only fast, but I have yet to really test my PEM symptom since then. So far I've only done a few mild work outs...

Post Edited (potsnpans) : 7/29/2020 6:08:31 PM (GMT-6)

potsnpans said...
Garzie: I've enjoyed reading your posts here and elsewhere... I've read that CFS patients generally have a low sedimentation rate (blood test). Might this be where a distinction can be made with Lyme patients who suffer PEM? I've personally been high the 2 times I've been tested.

On Dr B's advice.. Lifting weights doesn't give me nearly as much trouble as cardio. I think it has something to do with the mitochondria using glycogen as a fuel source while the heart rate is lower vs. using fatty acids as a fuel source while heart rate is higher.

insomniaaa: Many antibiotics are known to cause mitochondrial damage, as you're speculating. Azithromycin is one that can and is commonly prescribed in Lyme treatments. Disulfiram, while not an antibiotic in the traditional sense, can also cause mitochondrial damage.

I don't know anything about stem cell therapy or how much the previosly mentioned herbs can do, but fasting can help mitochondrial issues through autophagy.. and it shares benefits with the ketogenic diet, as Garzie had suggested.

I recently did a 5 day water only fast, but I have yet to really test my PEM symptom since then. So far I've only done a few mild work outs...

thank you for your kind remarks.

on SED rate - mine is low each time tested - but on looking into this - I think it can be high or low in many chronic bacterial infections depending on the person. many studies looking at standard markers in things like Bartonella and other co-infections found this.

it's true that higher heart rate / more intense exercise tends to burn more fat - but my feeling is it is down to oxidative stress levels inside the mitochondrial in the cell.
I will try to summaries what I have absorbed from multiple sources to try to outline why i believe this:

whenever our cells burn energy they use up the antioxidants needed to keep the cycle running properly and prevent oxidative damage to the mitochondrial and cell membranes.
the main master anti-oxidant in this cycle is glutathione - but it, in turn, is produced and recycled by a host of other anti-oxidants in a kind of pyramid or extended cycle - each layer needing the one below it to support and recycle it.

in chronic diseases this cycle of antioxidants appears to be disrupted/broken and these energy reactions cause more free radicals - which damage or oxidize more membranes and a vicious cycle is created.

short-duration anaerobic exercise ( eg resistance training) stimulates regeneration - but likely causes less overall damage because even though it is more intense - it is not continuous and the body has a chance for its impaired machinery to replenish these anti-oxidants. so while it undoubtedly causes damage ( all exercise does even in healthy persons ) the overall equation is still in favor of recovery.

so I think it's becoming clear that what wee call CFS is really just a cluster of symptoms including PEM that can result from a large number of causes. Lyme disease is just one of them. as many here with Lyme and PEM will relate to.
Sarah Myhill also shares this view and treats people with CFS from a number of causes including farmers exposed to high levels of pesticides, people with chronic viruses, Lyme, stress and lifestyle issues etc etc

The difficult part in mito awareness supplementation......is most all of these supplements have more than one possible reaction in your body.

I remember going around and round trying to figure out my energy deficit. A gene Dr opened my eyes to the vast possibilities of the cause. It was endless.

Methalation is obviously a big thing, and the Crebs cycle is probably off kilter with many people here. Liver genes matter too.

There was an extended post on choline here about two years ago, a direct Crebs influencing compound of which, I think people on...."Lyme net" (?) found helpfull, and thats where people here got the idea.

Some amino acids can really influence you physically and mentally too, I tried these with a gene Dr too.

My point here- try a wide range of supps, if something helps, great....but you might not know exactly what its chemically doing.....which prob doesn't really matter. Gotta be carefull in your choices though - to some extent.

I definitely spent a good amount of time and $ in this area. The more I learned, the more roads it led too. Tried this, that...moved on the the next one. Was a long journey.

To really successfully pin point it you also need gut heath on your mind.

For those finding something helpful early on.....wow...your lucky!

"As someone here who is in "remission", are you currently taking anything for mito support?"

---------------------------------

None. The last supp that could fall into that category which I used was a "high end" but mid priced multi-vit by Pure Encapsulations, which I completely stopped last winter without any noticeable symptom return. For the record, I used several mito friendly multi-vitamins and never noticed anything. Not currently taking any ammino acids either.

All I really take now is liver support (bad liver genes), thyroid Rx, Vit D, Moly D, Zinc, Mag glycinate before bed, two hair natural suppliments and sometimes occasional adrenal adaptogens.

Post Edited (astroman) : 7/30/2020 12:23:37 PM (GMT-6)

potsnpans said...

Garzie said...
in chronic diseases this cycle of antioxidants appears to be disrupted/broken and these energy reactions cause more free radicals - which damage or oxidize more membranes and a vicious cycle is created.

Interestingly the free radicals, often referred to as reactive oxygen species (ROS), are also created by the immune system in bacterial infections.. specifically when bacteria are challenged by immune cells. **I wish I could find where I got this info. My notes only say "Yale study"**

ROS have their own purposes and are not all bad of course.. but ketones help reduce toxic ROS accumulation.

i think its a general property of several of the white blood cell types. Don't quote me as there are lots of different types of them - but the granulocytes are designed to find invading bacteria and then kind of disintegrate releasing lots of little granules - and these granules then release reactive oxygen species like hydrogen peroxide in a very targetted fashion.

i think this mechanism is really designed for dealing with extracellular pathogens that are living on teh surface of or in the spaces between the human cells.

Its clever in that it doesn't flood your system with toxic bleach-like chemicals - instead, it releases tiny targetted amounts just where they are needed thereby minimizing systemic damage.

unfortunately, most of the chronic co-infections and Lyme spirochetes spend most of their time inside the cells, inside tissues with v little access by blood and hence white blood cells, or in biofilms and protected.

so I am not sure how significant this mechanism is in Lyme. I think the Apoptosis of infected cells may be more critical.
but I have read of treatments for Lyme that are aimed at trying to slow down is free-living motility and this is thought to help by allowing the white blood cells to catch up to the spirochetes which are otherwise more mobile.

As far as specialty conventional medicine and MITO goes - the lactic acid test is done comparing before muscle contraction and after. Then they repeat it with more time between. I still passed with flying colors. Some people dont.

So yes, this is complicated and probably full of theores, some right, some not, but then it all depends on the individual probably.