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Posted 10/13/2020 3:00 PM (GMT 0)
thanks for keeping us updated carl - keep up the good work and do check-in if you try Methylene Blue
very interested in that one too.
Posted 10/14/2020 5:08 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks for posting about your experiences with fenbendazole.

I just recently started albendazole - currently taking 200mg / day. It is making me herx a lot and to me it feels like Bart herxing. I've been trying to find any reports of albendazole hitting Bart. It does seem like 'azole drugs' were found to be active against Bart in one of the screening studies. I'm not sure if albendazole is truly an azole drug though as the ones listed are all considered antifungals.

Have you read anything about using albendazole vs fenbendazole for hitting Bart? I believe they are pretty similar drugs.

I'm also on Rifampin 600mg and Minocycline 200mg.
Posted 10/14/2020 10:09 PM (GMT 0)
Garzie sorry you are travelling this road also. I intend to try to update around the blood tests.

Project

I was/am really excited to see that these "azoles cross the blood brain barrier. It is apparent to me that in treatment of cancer these can be very effective, they also appear to be antifungal (lyme and bart should respond) and antiprotozoal (babs). There is much hope here. Albendazole is mentioned.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28078780/

This is the free version

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A2KLfS5mmYdfPNkAF49XNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzQEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1602750950/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2F%2Fetd.auburn.edu%2Fhandle%2F10415%2F5410%3fshow%3Dfull/RK=2/RS=9JFxjT8aaIgq5_VL31tIQU8.BDQ-

Benzimidazole anthelmintics have reported anti-neoplastic effects both in vitro and in
vivo. The purpose of this study was to evaluate the in vitro chemosensitivity of canine glioma J3T
cells to mebendazole and fenbendazole.
...
Mebendazole and fenbendazole are cytotoxic in canine glioma J3T cells in vitro and may
be good candidates for treatment of canine gliomas. Further in vivo studies evaluating
pharmacokinetics of mebendazole and fenbendazole in the cerebrospinal fluid and subsequent
antitumoral efficacy are indicated.

Post Edited (carlnpa) : 10/14/2020 6:25:47 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/15/2020 1:21 AM (GMT 0)
There are some azoles that aren’t anti fungals :

Metronidazole, (under the brand name Flagyl) and Tinidazole are an antibiotic and antiprotozoal medication
Posted 10/15/2020 8:43 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
There are some azoles that aren’t anti fungals :

Metronidazole, (under the brand name Flagyl) and Tinidazole are an antibiotic and antiprotozoal medication

yep it's confusing - and I wondered if they are related

but metronidazole and tinidazole have different mechanisms of action to the Azole antifungal drugs - so even if they share some structural similarities ( not sure) they seem to work in different ways.

the anti-fungal azoles seem to disrupt cell membranes - and the anti-bacterial ones act on bacterial DNA to prevent replication - at least this is what the drugs bank info says
Posted 10/15/2020 8:57 PM (GMT 0)

Creekee said...


Garzie: have you checked for mold/biotoxin illness? My LLMD sent me in that direction when abx helped, but didn't fix me. Also re interesting possible treatments for bart, have you read anything about gallium nitrate?
.

Sorry Creekee - i missed your questions

i have read about it and researched it but not tested as the symptoms, circumstances around getting ill, and reactions to treatment suggest bart and lyme to me more than mold - but i guess its possible to be a part of the picture.
i am however improving on lyme and bart herbs - so i tend to think these are my major issues

i haven't come across Gallium Nitrate - sounds a bit scary as its a transition element I think - most of those are toxic like heavy metals and aluminum - may have to do a little reading

generally, my thought process on these things is this:
i want to stray a little from a path of known least harm as possible - while still getting well.

so, i am interested in many of the new and encouraging treatments - but for me, many of them fail this test - and I don't want to kill my self doing a science experiment trying to get well.

however entirely risk-free approaches that work may also be very limited - so there is always some risk - even with herbs for instance - so it's a balance of risk and returns.

often the risk part is unknown for teh new stuff though
Posted 10/15/2020 9:24 PM (GMT 0)
I guess these drugs are part of the Benzimidazoles group. Not sure how closely related to the 'azole drugs' which are antifungals.

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/pharmacology/anthelmintics/benzimidazoles

I found a post where someone collected a bunch of info on fenbendazole hitting Bart. Might have to join a facebook group to see it though:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2067807336861825/permalink/2258142301161660/
Posted 10/16/2020 11:11 PM (GMT 0)
Also found a group that uses Fenbendazole to treat Morgellons and Lyme.

Here's their protocol: http://cancerprogram.weebly.com/uploads/1/4/2/6/1426390/fenben_protocol.pdf

FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/stevesimages
Posted 10/17/2020 12:58 AM (GMT 0)
Project
There are many reporting bart remission with fenbendazole in the face book groups.
Treatment revolves around fenben + pyrantel pamoate + artemisinin + praziquantel.

Creek
Did you make it to the higher dosage?
Posted 10/17/2020 1:15 AM (GMT 0)

carlnpa said...
Project
There are many reporting bart remission with fenbendazole in the face book groups.
Treatment revolves around fenben + pyrantel pamoate + artemisinin + praziquantel.

I have come across a few stories. I find it odd that the antiparasitics would hit Bart though. I wonder if they are killing it directly or if by killing off parasites it shifts the immune system from Th2 dominant to Th1 response.
Posted 10/17/2020 2:06 AM (GMT 0)
I believe it may also be cidal to intermediate bart hosts, such as nematodes, that would not be touched by conventional abx. I suspect fenben is an efflux pump inhibitor to the bacteria itself, making it vulnerable to other abx.

This has been speculated to be true for several of the anthelmintics.

I believe the alternative host theory has merit and am following treatment based on that idea.

There is another puzzle here also, the anterior end of my optic nerve is supposed to be dead. The doctors can see it was dead, end of story. But it is healing, they say it is not possible, but can see it. So that means some part of the combo I am taking is not just neuroprotective, but neuroregenerative?
Posted 10/17/2020 3:22 AM (GMT 0)

carlnpa said...
I believe it may also be cidal to intermediate bart hosts, such as nematodes, that would not be touched by conventional abx. I suspect fenben is an efflux pump inhibitor to the bacteria itself, making it vulnerable to other abx.

This has been speculated to be true for several of the anthelmintics.

I believe the alternative host theory has merit and am following treatment based on that idea.

There is another puzzle here also, the anterior end of my optic nerve is supposed to be dead. The doctors can see it was dead, end of story. But it is healing, they say it is not possible, but can see it. So that means some part of the combo I am taking is not just neuroprotective, but neuroregenerative?

It does seem to be killing Bart somehow, and given how hard it seems to be to get Bart into remission I'm happy to have another tool in the box.

There are a lot of stories of people's eyes healing in that Morgellons group I posted before.
Posted 10/17/2020 4:32 PM (GMT 0)
there was a study recently, from one of the well-known research groups ( Zhang i think), showing some of the anti-fungal azoles were directly bactericidal to Bart - incl stationary or persister forms.

this was a big deal as so far v few conventional antibiotics can do that - and ones that can tend to have a rather severe side effect profile = permanent harm - eg deafness with gentamicin.

it could be nematodes of other parasites are involved - but the now well-documented persister cell behavior and the immunosuppressing behavior of Bart, along with its prolific biofilm-producing abilities are I think sufficient to explain the difficulty in treatment so many of us see.
maybe the parasite-host/protecting thing came up as an idea based around empirical benefits found by using some of the above anti-parasitic drugs - and as a way to explain treatment failures, before we knew about persister cells in Bart and that antiparasite drugs acted directly on Bart?

on the other hand, some famous Lyme researchers ( MacDonald?) have reportedly found nematode organisms in the brains of Alzheimer's patients - so who knows what mechanisms could be there. maybe these are simply allowed as co-infections due to the suppressed immune system due to Bart,Lyme etc
Posted 10/17/2020 5:13 PM (GMT 0)
I just found a paper which would seem to indicate that fenbendazole doesn't kill bacteria or protozoa:

"We conclude that the current work suggests that treatment with this specific worming agent does not lead to a change in either the bacterial or protozoal populations. In addition no change was detected in the major chemical bonds present, suggesting that it was not possible to detect a change in the major metabolites being produced. In turn this suggests that the only effect to be had from treatment with this worming agent is its intended purpose of killing intestinal worms."

The effect of administration of fenbendazole on the microbial hindgut population of the horse
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc6033616/

So I'm leaning towards thinking that it is probably killing some sort of parasite in us, and not Bartonella directly. Who knows if maybe "Lyme" is really partly a parasite issue. Many seem to be doing better on Disulfiram which is basically an anti parasitic. The last time I got to semi-remission was after doing a round of Klinghardt's parasite protocol. I've never actually seen any parasites exiting, but maybe there are some microscopic ones like nematodes or something.
Posted 10/17/2020 7:24 PM (GMT 0)
Project

Fenbendazole may be useful in breaking up biofilms, cidal to intracellular bacteria, no effect on gut bacteria. Bart treatment using antifungals such as dapsone is recognized.

Here was the fenbendazole antifungal/biofilm reference I had read.

The Anti-helminthic Compound
Mebendazole Has Multiple Antifungal
Effects against Cryptococcus
neoformans
Luna S. Joffe1,

"Cryptococcus neoformans is the most lethal pathogen of the central nervous system.
The gold standard treatment of cryptococcosis, a combination of amphotericin B
with 5-fluorocytosine, involves broad toxicity, high costs, low efficacy, and limited
worldwide availability. Although the need for new antifungals is clear, drug research
and development (R&D) is costly and time-consuming. Thus, drug repurposing is an
alternative to R&D and to the currently available tools for treating fungal diseases. Here
we screened a collection of compounds approved for use in humans seeking for those
with anti-cryptococcal activity. We found that benzimidazoles consist of a broad class
of chemicals inhibiting C. neoformans growth. Mebendazole and fenbendazole were
the most efficient antifungals showing in vitro fungicidal activity. Since previous studies
showed that mebendazole reaches the brain in biologically active concentrations, this
compound was selected for further studies. Mebendazole showed antifungal activity
against phagocytized C. neoformans, affected cryptococcal biofilms profoundly and
caused marked morphological alterations in C. neoformans, including reduction of
capsular dimensions."

Post Edited (carlnpa) : 10/17/2020 1:37:32 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/17/2020 8:33 PM (GMT 0)

carlnpa said...
Project

Fenbendazole may be useful in breaking up biofilms, cidal to intracellular bacteria, no effect on gut bacteria. Bart treatment using antifungals such as dapsone is recognized.

Here was the fenbendazole antifungal/biofilm reference I had read.

The Anti-helminthic Compound
Mebendazole Has Multiple Antifungal
Effects against Cryptococcus
neoformans
Luna S. Joffe1,

I'm just trying to understand what exactly it's doing. It's definitely hitting something in my jaw/sinus in locations that Bart abx do. However I have been getting night sweats since starting it which I associate with Babesia. It's possible maybe it's really just hitting something fungal in the same location. Was thinking of asking my LLMD for some other antifungal just to see if maybe there is a fungal issue.

Dapsone is a hardcore antibiotic used for leprosy etc. I just have a hard time finding anything to support fenbendazole/albendazole hitting bacteria at all, other than a few reports of people whose Bart seemingly got better after a few months on it.
Posted 10/17/2020 8:50 PM (GMT 0)
I think Carl was pointing to the fact that not all bacteria are alike - in fact, they differ dramatically

and so while the paper you referenced were looking at gut bacteria ( ie big extracellular conventional bacteria ) and finding no effect.

whereas there is new research that shows that drugs in the same family as fenbendazole do directly kill small intracellular bacteria like Bart
see this study from last year

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6628006/

"It is interesting to note we found several antifungal azoles to have good activity against B. henselae. Clotrimazole at a therapeutically relevant concentration had excellent activity against both growing and non-growing B. henselae and could kill stationary phase B. henselae without viable cells detected on agar plates. In addition, it is of interest that clotrimazole has been shown to be clinically useful for treating other diseases, such as sickle cell anemia, malaria, beriberi, tinea pedis, Chagas disease, and cancer [50]."
Posted 10/17/2020 9:06 PM (GMT 0)

Garzie said...
I think Carl was pointing to the fact that not all bacteria are alike - in fact, they differ dramatically

and so while the paper you referenced were looking at gut bacteria ( ie big extracellular conventional bacteria ) and finding no effect.

whereas there is new research that shows that drugs in the same family as fenbendazole do directly kill small intracellular bacteria like Bart
see this study from last year

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6628006/

I guess that is what I was wondering about in an earlier comment, are these antiparasitic benzimidazoles truly in the same family as the antifungal azole drugs which seem to have some anti Bartonella effect. I'm no chemist so not sure.
Posted 10/17/2020 9:20 PM (GMT 0)
This is what I'm suggesting could be an alternate explanation for Bart improvement after taking these anti parasitics:

"Chronic helminthic infections induce predominantly Th2-type immune responses [20]. However, protective immunity against intracellular pathogens, including mycobacteria, require Th1 responses [24]. As Th1/Th2 responses are mutually exclusive, and helminths by capitalizing on the Th2 response may cross-inhibit Th1 response required to clear mycobacteria [20] it has been suggested that the removal of intestinal helminths by deworming would remove the inhibitory effects of Th2 on Th1 responses [20,32]."

Effect of deworming on human T cell responses to mycobacterial antigens in helminth-exposed individuals before and after bacille Calmette–Guérin (BCG) vaccination
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc1905995/
Posted 10/18/2020 2:22 AM (GMT 0)
I think someone was asking about this earlier. Here's the video, or one of the videos, with Dr. Alan MacDonald discussing Lyme, nematodes, anti-helminthic meds:

https://vimeo.com/166688480
Posted 10/19/2020 11:27 AM (GMT 0)
Creek

Any update on your experience?
Posted 10/31/2020 3:58 PM (GMT 0)
A possible explanation for my vision recovery, the neurologic repair ability of fenbendazole re: axons. Might help with autoimmune issues also.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4048737/

Fenbendazole improves pathological and functional recovery
following traumatic spinal cord injury
Chen Guang Yu1,2,*, Ranjana Singh1,2, Carolyn Crowdus1,2, Kashif Raza1, Jeanie Kincer3,
and James W. Geddes1,2

Although earlier studies indicated that fenbendazole had minimal effects on the murine
immune response (Reiss et al., 1987, Cray et al., 2008), more recent findings demonstrate
that fenbendazole suppresses B cell activation (Landin et al., 2009) and alters the onset and
disease severity of murine experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (Ramp et al., 2010).
Autoantibodies produced following CNS injury contribute to axonal degeneration and
neurological dysfunction, such as locomotor disability (Ankeny et al., 2009, Ankeny and
Popovich, 2010, Lucin et al., 2007, Lucin et al., 2009, Zhang and Popovich, 2011, Zhang et
al., 2013).

Quick update, 15 days fenbendazole at 900mg active, changed to liquid suspension form from dry granules.

Post Edited (carlnpa) : 10/31/2020 11:58:10 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/31/2020 4:39 PM (GMT 0)
Carlpna,

I was curious if you could elaborate on your experience w fenben and neuropathy?

Firstly, how bad is your neuropathy? Is it pretty much an every day debilitating problem, or more of a time to time nuisance? And did fenben ultimately help it? Sounds like it aggravated it at times


Finally, is there any way to test for parasites it might be hitting, or are those stool tests inaccurate?
Posted 10/31/2020 5:56 PM (GMT 0)
DCD, sorry about your neuropathy. I recall your posts. IMHO consider trying high dose lutein, my wife has neuropathy and she believes it has helped reduce hers at 120mg (Puritans Pride 40mg/capsule). She prefers all natural type treatments, won't do fenben unless she gets a good clean positive on TBD. The myelin sheath that gets inflamed is composed of lutein.

In reverse order, Fenben is documented to treat many parasites, nematodes to large helminths, strongyles etc. I don't know about testing for these.

My neuropathy left me blind in my right eye and damaged the vision in my left eye. Optic neuropathy edema. Numbness on outside of both hands, balls of both feet and toes. Fenben does impact my eyes profoundly, doesn't hurt feels "full" idk how to describe.

From Jan 1 2020 when I started fenben I believe my neuropathy in extremities has lessened. My eyes though, I have documented the change and it has been profound for the better. From very little visual perception in right eye to much perception and some acuity.

Improvement has been a very slow process.

The reference I just put up would indicate a much broader systemic fenben mode of action, not just anthelmintic, not just anti tubule (cancer mode and bactericidal).

Just my n=1 sample size report.

Post Edited (carlnpa) : 10/31/2020 6:09:26 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 10/31/2020 8:31 PM (GMT 0)
interesting, thanks man. So it sounds like it hasnt had a huge impact on your neuropathy. Maybe not worth investigating for me just yet.

Speaking of helminths, this article has the opposite take: https://www.popsci.com/can-intestinal-worms-treat-autoimmune-disease/
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