GI Bacteria in Lyme Patients

I wrote this on Facebook earlier in the year and couldn't remember if I posted it here. Perhaps I did, but if I didn't, it's a good read. It's just my thoughts.

It is known that the bacteria in our GI tract make most of our B Vitamins. The phylum most responsible for this is the Firmicutes and they make about 75% of our B Vitamins. Some of the bacteria in this phylum include Lactobacillus, Listeria, Enterococcus, Clostridia, Staph, and Strep. We have a lot of these bacteria, more than any other. If your calcium levels are high, you may not have enough Firmicutes. A rule of thumb is the fatter you are, the more Firmicutes you have. Unfortunately, the bigger you are, the more undesirable Firmicutes you have. For a long time now, I have suspected that Lyme patients have a big increase in Enterococcus and a decrease in Lactobacillus. This could be explained by manganese availability and pH variation of the GI tract where Enterococcus likes a much higher pH than Lactobacillus. What you see is the pH from food intake AND pathogens affecting what bacteria grow. So if we have a GI pathogen putting out a certain pH, then eating a different pH food will help some of the other bacteria but it won't necessarily stop that pathogen from affecting that region of our GI tract. As Lactobacillus levels go down, so does the hydrogen peroxide they produce. This allows other bacteria to increase, like Proteobacteria and the yeast Candida.

Proteobacteria include E coli, H pylori, Pseudomonas, and several other bacteria that become pathogens in higher numbers. Many of these bacteria love sulfur so the more meat you eat, the more of these you have. They also produce tryptophanase, Tryptophanse breaks down tryptophan and tryptophan availability is a major problem for Lyme patients. One of the by-products of tryptophan breakdown is ammonium and by losing a hydrogen at a higher pH makes it ammonia. I believe Lyme patients have too many Proteobacteria.

Actinobacteria come from the soil and are both good and bad. The good, they make a lot of antibiotic chemicals that decrease unwanted pathogen growth. The bad, some can be pretty bad pathogens. I believe Lyme patients have increased bad Actinobacteria like Mycobacterium and less good Actinobacteria like Streptomyces. A note on Actinobacteria, they make Vitamin B-6 which is needed as a cofactor with potassium to make tryptophanase. Each phyla makes products that affect the other phylas. The Actinobacteria act as a buffering agent to maintain pH. Too many would allow increased Enterococcal growth. One way to slow down Enterococcal growth is to make more ammonia which means more Proteobacteria.

The Bacteroidetes make tryptophanase and some are pathogens. They like a higher pH like Enterococcus and some of their bacteria include Prevotella, Bacterioides, and Porphyromonas. Many of these help break down the cellulose in plants. Some of these are manganese oxidizers so when manganese goes down, so do they. So when Borrelia robs us of our manganese, we decrease our bacteria for plant breakdown and increase Enterococcus.
All of these changes in our GI tract alter B Vitamin production. A major issue becomes tryptophan and tyrosine availability. Tyrosine can be made from phenylalanine (if you have enough BH4) and tryptophan is used up making niacin. It takes 60 mg of tryptophan to make 1 mg of niacin. When you have a lot of tryptophanase producing bacteria in the GI tract, tryptophan becomes scarce. Niacin is so important because without enough of it, some bacteria increase their virulence and pathogenicity. Without enough niacin, we can have neurological issues, arthritis, and higher cholesterol among other things. Does this sound familiar? To increase niacin production, our body increases streptococcus levels and at some point, they are pathogenic and this depletes more of our immune resources. Eating foods high in tryptophan and tyrosine can be beneficial in the short term because of deficiency, but doing this increases our already skewed assortment of GI bacteria. It's a Catch 22 that must be navigated carefully.

Certainly eating less meat and eggs would be optimal, but some people can't do it without increasing oxidative stress. From what I have read, the best thing to restore GI mucosal integrity would be Dapsone combination therapy combined with optimal eating. When this doesn't work, parasitic infection or some toxic substance could be the reason. Whatever it is, none of us seem to get well following the exact same routine.

Quin said...
It's not just the gut bacteria though. Bartonella henselae also destroys tryptophan and other amino acids, and also produces vitamin B6. Usually people infected with bartonella are not deficient in B6 because bartonella produces so much of it, but may be deficient in other B vitamins.

I have never heard that before. Can you post a link to the research you found indicating that bartonella produces vitamin b6?

WalkingbyFaith said...
I have never heard that before. Can you post a link to the research you found indicating that bartonella produces vitamin b6?

KEGG (www.genome.jp) identified genes in bartonella henselae associated with B6 synthesis. I don't know if this has been confirmed in vitro or in vivo.

Borrelia does not have these genes. Plasmodium (malaria) has a different gene associated with synthesis of B6 from glutamine. Of common vector-borne diseases only bartonella seems to have the complete synthesis pathway from 2-Oxo-3-hydroxy-4-phosphobutanoate, although ehrlichia may be able to do the final step.

astro, thats interesting you mention the skin. Since going on this high fat ketogenic soup diet, my skin has made some amazing changes. I suffer from ruddy rosacea like cheeks. Gone. All the comedones on my forehead, gone. My chest and back acne, gone. My gf is an esthetician and would literally have to give me a facial every week to keep my forehead in check. she cant stop focusing on how clear it is now. She's going to try it as well now she's so amazed. In addition, that horrible BO i've had is gone.

i agree with astro, you gotta figure out what your gut cant handle. I think the best way to do it is w/ an elimination diet. Start really basic and just eat the same thing every day for a month, allow the lining to heal. For me its these soups. Then add things back in slowly.

I cant recommend these soups highly enough. They have freaking changed my life! Eat nothing but this for a month, and tell me youre not cured. I challenge anyone on this board!

https://captainsoup.com/pages/ingredients

Georgia - interesting reading on the shifts in the gut microbiome with Lyme

i would like to review it more but I have an issue:

I have two PCR based tests from two different leading labs doing this stuff taken a few months apart with no ABX, dietary changes or interventions between.

however the results in terms of which Genera or even Phyla present could not have been more different from result 1 to result 2

i used Ubiome for the first and the well regarded Diagnostic Solutions GI-MAP test for the second

i wrote about my experiences at the time here

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/blastocystis-does-anyone-know-of-a-pcr-based-test-that-is-available.61265/page-2

at the time I could only conclude that the user has no way of establishing if either is any better than a random number generator, that the technology was likely not ready for roll out and neither could be trusted -

but do you have a view on which might be considered more reliable?

GH: A ketogenic diet can still be very heavy on greens and other non-starchy vegetables.

dcd2103 said...
Agreed pots. I think its a falacy that you are going to be "nutrient deficient" on a ketogenic paleo diet. In fact, quite the opposite. You end up cutting out the grains, added sugars, lactose, and high lectin vegetables like nightshades and legumes, but the nurtrient dense veggies are all up for grabs.

Because of the nutrient depletion of today's vegetables, I don't feel your statement is accurate. A banana today has 33% less potassium than it used to have before genetic engineering and soil depletions. The same applies to almost all of the commercially grown products. If you are eating 75% fat, 20% protein, and 5 % carbs, you will not get sufficient nutrients.

yep - old habits die hard - but you can change them.

for all my almost 50 years before Keto - i ate a high carbohydrate diet - i got into sports nutrition in my teens and at that time it was all about complex carbs for energy some protein and some veg - v little fat.

fat made me break out so I was averse to it for that reason too

I was very resistant to try Keto - but I saw my partner do so well on it - and I was desperate to get well again - so I had to give it a go.

it made a huge difference - and it took only around 4-6 weeks to completely adjust - and now i look forward to every single meal at least as much as before - if not more so.

i am eating mainly meat and eggs and fish and non-starchy veg - plus olive oil; and coconut oil and herbs - less than 20g of carbs - a day and way more nutritional density than I ever have before.

my meat intake includes many of the non-lean cuts to ensure I get fat and nutrients other than just lean meat, shoulder, brisket, collar,
i also now eat liver, heart, and tongue regularly - i now find all of these things really tasty!
so even a die-hard like me can convert successfully.

i would also say that the discussion of what is the ideal diet for a human being will run and run ad infinitum - and there are many passionate people with firmly held beliefs on either side.

but for Lyme patients - and for me in particular - its a much less contentious issue
i just can't deal with carbs or lots of fiber any longer
so, since those are not available to me, I need to choose the dietary intake that i can tolerate and support my health as far as is possible.

This Paleo-Keto approach fits for me - i made no progress until i tried this

Post Edited (Garzie) : 11/5/2020 2:13:41 PM (GMT-7)

Bump for dcd2103, in case my previous comments were missed.

Also, regarding the following:

dcd2103 said...
I cant recommend these soups highly enough. They have freaking changed my life! Eat nothing but this for a month, and tell me youre not cured. I challenge anyone on this board!

https://captainsoup.com/pages/ingredients

How many of these soups do/did you eat per day?

Roughly speaking, in order for me to get approximately 1,800 calories per day with these soups (approximately 375 calories per serving), that would cost me about $1,450 per month. Or, am I missing something?

Thanks,
Dude

Yep, not cheap - but then neither are the premium ingredients - and if you are not willing to make it yourself from scratch and the only places that will make such a product are small-scale niche businesses then - I guess that's what it costs.

on the other hand, it's dead easy to make the same dish yourself - you could make a week's worth at a time and it would cost around 1/5th - 1/6th of that to do yourself

ingredient weight £/kg cost
zuch 125 2.5 0.3125
squash 110 2.5 0.275
Beef 100 8.5 0.85
spinach 40 2.5 0.1
olive oil 10 6.5 0.065
himalayan pink salt 5 5 0.025
bone broth 50 2 0.1

total 440g £1.72