Air Hunger, while Herxing--and then passing out!

I had a somewhat serious Herx yesterday evening, after being on my 2nd week of Dr. J's "Lyme Bart" Protocol. Administered by the LLPA that I work with, in Asheville, NC. I prompted her recently (the LLPA), to see if she was okay with me hitting the bugs a little harder. In the 2nd Week of this Protocol, they normally eliminate the Flagyl, during the week--and we decided to add it back in on, for Thursday & Friday. Flagyl always seems to give me minor Herxes (probably from hitting deep, maybe round-body form Borrelia--at least that's what the LLPA thinks). At least I feel like (when I add Flagyl), SOMETHING is being killed or stirred up.

But yesterday evening (Saturday), I felt extreme exhaustion and realized I was panting or breathing really quickly. Headache pain behind my eyes, and stinging eyes. Even lying down on a couch for an hour, I was still panting and couldn't seem to get enough air. When I finally stood up, I should have been more careful, because I soon felt dizzy and passed out--hitting the floor face-first! Almost broke my nose, and I 'spect I'll have a black eye for a while.

Is the air-hunger symptom more common with Herxing from Babesia or Bartonella--or can it also occur with killing Borrelia? Apparently, Rifabutin is effective against Bart, but also can kill Borrelia. I've also probably got Bart pretty bad--have had blood-clots in both legs and poor circulation in my whole lower body--and have had to go through some vascular procedures for that..

I'm including the Dr. J Lyme Bart Protocol, below, in case anyone's interested. (We left Diflucan out, in the 2nd Week, since that is hard on the liver. And, I AM also taking 3 caps/day of the "LB Core Protocol," by Green Dragon Botanicals, whom Buhner trusts--J. Knotweed, Cat's Claw, Andrographis, etc.):

Lyme Bart (Dr. J’s Protocol)

(Week 1)
All week long, during Week 1: (2 tsp. Xylitol/per day, & Lactoferrin 500mg/2x per day)

Monday:
Omnicef (replacing with Amoxycillin--875mg am & pm)
Septra DS, am & pm
Rifabutin 150mg, am & pm

Tuesday: OFF

Wednesday:
Omnicef (replacing with Amoxycillin--875mg am & pm)
Septra DS, am & pm
Rifabutin 150mg, am & pm

Thursday:
Flagyl 500mg, am & pm
Diflucan 200mg, am & pm

Friday:
Omnicef (replacing with Amoxycillin--875mg am & pm)
Septra DS, am & pm
Rifabutin 150mg, am & pm
Flagyl 500mg, am & pm
Diflucan 200mg, am & pm

Saturday: OFF

Sunday: OFF

Post Edited (BlueRidgeDave) : 11/4/2020 8:17:03 PM (GMT-7)

Seems like classic herx reaction to me. Also Rifabutin is pretty brutal abx...
Rifabutin/Rifampin+Septra is an effective combo to reduce MICs of both antibiotics.

btw, does Dr J. pulses Rifampin as he does with Rifabutin?

Post Edited (Dmitry) : 11/4/2020 3:39:20 PM (GMT-7)

Thanks, Dmitry, for your comment: "Seems like classic herx reaction to me. Also Rifabutin is pretty brutal abx... Rifabutin/Rifampin+Septra is an effective combo to reduce MICs of both antibiotics."

Hate to say it, but I don't know what you mean by "MCIs"? I haven't learned all the Lyme acronyms. Refers to side-effects? In the first week of the Lyme Bart protocol, I DO take Septra along with the Rifabutin. Also, if it's a "classic Herx," what organism is most likely being killed? I thought air hunger was more often due to die-off of Babesia or Bart? Though I've read somewhere that Rifabutin CAN kill Borrelia as well as Bart. Also, I AM taking 3 caps/day of the "LB Core Protocol," by Green Dragon Botanicals, whom Buhner trusts--J. Knotweed, Cat's Claw, Andrographis, etc. I wonder if that's making the abx even more efficient?

As for your question, Dr. J (through my LLPA, who's worked alongside him for a number of years) DOES pulse with the Rifabutin (in that I take it M, W. & Friday, for 2 weeks--and then 2 weeks off abx). And, Girlie: My LLPA (Anne W.) did give me the option of Rifabutin or Rifampin, for the Lyme Bart protocol . . . but strongly suggested Rifabutin if I could afford it.

Post Edited (BlueRidgeDave) : 11/4/2020 8:20:05 PM (GMT-7)

MIC = minimum inhibitory concentration;

combo of say 2 abx mutually reduces each other MIC in a dish and probably in the body too - more effective but could be much more harder to tolerate at the same time

air hunger - maybe a result of RBC/hemoglobin drop?

due to this: https://journalsblog.gastro.org/how-does-inflammation-lead-to-anemia/

(i always have slight to moderate air hunger coupled with increased inflammation)

> what organism is most likely being killed

impossible to say - both Bactrim and Rifabutin(Rifampin) are broadest spectrum antibiotics - so maybe the whole chronic microbiome

here are 2 targets of Rifabutin(Rifampin) and Bactrim in all pathogens:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/J_Henderson2/publication/259158305/figure/fig1/AS:702633895538690@1544532383279/Principal-bacterial-targets-for-antibiotic-action-A-Protein-biosynthesis-antibiotics.png

^ If you add macrolide/tetracycline class abx to the mix the resulting combo could become even more effective, but could reach the ER level of herx..

Post Edited (Dmitry) : 11/5/2020 2:42:26 AM (GMT-7)

Nope - I had read about his protocols and pulsing but I didn’t start seeing Dr J until Feb 2018.

I used the meds from my previous LLND plus ones I bought from ADC
(Rifampin)

Girlie: No, I wasn't prescribed dapsone and daraprim, along with the Rifabutin. What is it they do? I AM taking herbal supplements, for kidney & liver support (if that's what you're referring to) . . . and those supplements are working pretty darned well.

Post Edited (BlueRidgeDave) : 11/5/2020 12:34:58 PM (GMT-7)