Coxsackie Virus?

I also had real high Coxsackie results as well as EB many years ago. My LLMD at the time was not that concerned with either very high titters.

Here's my post from a few years back.

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3742574#gsc.tab=0

I do recall reading somewhere that really high Igg ( 3x or 4x above high bracket) could actually indicate an active infection.

tickbite666 said...
Here's my post from a few years back.

https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=3742574#gsc.tab=0

I do recall reading somewhere that really high Igg (3x or 4x above high bracket) could actually indicate an active infection.

tickbite666 said...
Here's a current article with Tim Jackson stating high IgG numbers and active infection. I couldn't find the article from an earlier period.

https://selfhack.com/blog/tim-jackson-leader-in-alternative-medicine-addressing-the-root-cause-of-chronic-illness-lyme-mold-and-other-pathogen-related-health-problems

Thank you for those posts, tickbite666.

Several years ago, I'd heard this same suggestion (that IGG levels which are 3-4x the top of the normal range may signify a reactivated infection), but I'd forgotten where I'd heard it and who said it. I thought it was Dr. Horowitz, but I went through all the videos of him that I'd downloaded and I could never find any evidence of him saying it.

So, after all this time, perhaps it was actually Dr. Tim Jackson. He's another person whom I'd watch on YouTube and online summits, as well as listen to on podcast interviews. You have FINALLY solved the mystery for me. It's like having an itch I can finally scratch.

For posterity, I'll cut-and-paste from the article you were nice enough to link. Also, I'll bold and highlight the specific comment you mentioned.

NOTE: The original publication date of the SelfHacked.com article isn't listed, but the date of the YouTube video embedded in this article is January 21, 2016. Thus, the article was almost certainly from around the same time. That's only relevant, as in the second block of text that follows, there's a reference to "...a new gut product from Germany that will be available in 1.5 - 2 years in the US."

Q: What do you think the underlying cause of chronic fatigue is?

A: The allopathic model has us thinking regarding simple cause and effect, but in the functional medicine matrix there are usually 10 or 12 different systems interacting to create this problem. For instance, a lot of people think if you heal the gut you’ll heal everything. True much of the time, but you can have systemic inflammation or systemic immune imbalance that leads to leaky gut so regarding chronic fatigue you see a conglomeration of symptoms. Normally there are some pathogens like HHV6, Mycoplasma (a cell wall deficient bacteria), Epstein-Barr. One thing to emphasize-even in the integrative circles they have been taught wrongly and incorrectly believe that IGM means that it’s a current infection, and IGG means a past infection (from college, or from childhood) – but in the work of Alex Vasquez (who wrote the book, “Integrative Rheumatology,”), there is discussion about some people not being able to mount an IgM response – their only immune attack is IGG. Therefore, if IGG levels are 3-4X the top of the normal range, this signifies currently active virus. As these numbers fall, even IGG numbers, people feel better. So Tim thinks there’s definitely a pathogen component, and a neuroinflammatory component, (often coming from the pathogens). So the microglial cells which we used to think were just structural in the brain and central nervous system play the role of an immune cell. When they get turned on they create brain fog, moodiness, insomnia, fatigue. There’s a number of different pathogens that can turn them on. Lipopolysaccharides from gram-negative bacteria (bad bacteria in the gut) can turn your microglia on, so that’s where the concept comes from that if you have a leaky gut eventually you’re going to have a leaky blood-brain barrier.

There’s supposed to be a new gut product from Germany that will be available in 1.5-2 years in the US. It’s not a probiotic, but it works by blocking lipopolysaccharides. Certainly, you want to try to get rid of as many gram-negative bacteria, but this product is supposed to be unique in that it blocks lipopolysaccharides in the subsequent cytokine storm or pro-inflammatory cytokine storm that you get in an immune attack like that. And then you also see there’s a hormonal component. The way another doctor Tim knows describes it is that pathogens hack into the neuroendocrine immune super system, so the nervous system, hormonal system, and the immune system are in a three-way conference call all the time. Hormone receptors can be damaged, and any time you have an inflammatory stressor, this is going to create pregnenolone steal. If you’re taking pregnenolone, the precursor, and it’s going down the cortisol pathway and the same thing can happen in women with both pregnenolone but also with progesterone. So some females are on 200 mg a day of progesterone a day, and the level is still in the tank because it’s not staying as progesterone, and that’s where these hormone clinics are kind of missing things, instead of saying “yes I can give you replacement hormones, but if you don’t address these other factors that hormone is not going to stay in the form that you think, and you can have paradoxical reactions.” A lot of the time in chronic fatigue you see a blunted cortisol response/a flat-line cortisol response.

Source: https://bit.ly/35ajbcg (redirects to SelfHacked.com)

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Post Edited (The Dude Abides) : 11/17/2020 12:13:30 AM (GMT-7)

Thanks for all the info.

Awaiting a reply on Igg or igm and what numbers they are.

I never had an acute case I can recall but wife said she had this as child. Reading the expected symptoms noted online and her experience, and that my lymish symptoms don't really align, I doubt this is the core problem. But eliminate one thing and you're one step forward.....

i guess one thing that may shed some light on viral infection in Lyme or associated conditions is some sort of trial with anti-viral herbs

many of these seem to be quite general anti-virals - so reliable testing of what specific virus is at work may not be necessary.

Buhner's Book on natural Anti-virals is an interesting and quite convincing read.

from memory the main antivirals he advocates are
Chinese Skullcap
Houttuynia leaf
Licorice root
Isatis
ginger juice
lomatium

usually taken together with supporting herbs.

most of these are very safe,
the only exception is licorice - which is fine short term - but can be an issue and should not be taken long term
in lyme/bart/ Houttuynia can cause strong herx reactions - so perhaps be mindful of that
but otherwise, i think this may be an affordable and potentially useful way to tell if you are having an issue with viruses.

eg for Coxsackie - from the Healing Lyme site
"For the coxsackie use Chinese skullcap (elkmountainherbs.com), isatis (sagewomanherbs.com), and licorice in a tincture blend; 2 parts skullcap, 2 parts isatis (tastes dreadful), 1 part licorice. ¼-1 sp 3x daily for 30 days. Then drop the licorice out of the formula and continue with just the first two (if necessary). Astragalus is also good for that virus."

or for EBV
"There are a number of herbs that are specific for EBV – but I do want to note that nearly everyone is positive for EBV. For most people it is something that does not cause problems. However, if you are experiencing chronic fatigue like symptoms, it can be the cause. The antiviral herbs specific for EBV that are also widely systemic in the body are: lomatium, andrographis, reishi, licorice, isatis, Japanese knotweed, Chinese skullcap root, and fresh ginger root. The organism also damages mitochondria and their function which is what leads to such low energy levels. The herbs specific for protecting mitochondria and their function are: cordyceps, motherwort, rhodiola, Chinese skullcap root, kudzu.
I would start with:
• Herbal tincture combination of: Chinese skullcap, licorice, isatis, and lomatium. Equal parts of each tincture mixed together, ¼ tsp 3x daily. AND
• Tincture combination of: rhodiola, reishi, kudzu. Same dosage AND
• Cordyceps 2000 mg 3x daily or tincture: ¼ tsp 3x daily (you can purchase from sagewomanherbs.com)
And do this for 60 days and see if it helps.
You may have to buy the herbs separately and mix them yourself or try woodlandessence.com or elkmountainherbs.com as sources."

To respond to the original question re: Coxsackie, Dr. John Chia is well-known in the CFS community for exploring the link between enteroviruses (including Coxsackie) & CFS: https://me-pedia.org/wiki/john_chia.

You will find a lot of discussion on the Phoenix Rising forums: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/search/397106/?q=coxsackie&o=date

Hope you are well too, Dude!