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Posted 12/10/2020 2:41 AM (GMT 0)
Has anyone in the U.S. been vaccinated for covid yet?

We are getting the vaccine in 2 - 3 weeks - not me unless I’m forced to
- hoping it’s not a condition of employment...
Posted 12/10/2020 3:49 AM (GMT 0)
If the vaccine has had serious side effects, out of 43000 (to just take Pfizer one as example) people enrolled you would see a lot of serious cases. Instead, you see these people no longer develop covid and are healthy (and a few had headaches after the shot).

By now we all should know what happens if you get sars-cov-2 to infect 43000 people. A sizable number of these people will die, but many more will suffer irreversible health issues (lung/heart/kidney damage, autoimmune disease, the list is long).

"Data demonstrate vaccine was well tolerated across all populations with over 43,000 participants enrolled; no serious safety concerns observed; the only Grade 3 adverse event greater than 2% in frequency was fatigue at 3.8% and headache at 2.0%"
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20201118005595/en/

I think all this vaccine fear has to do with the simple decision of getting the shot. Whereas infection seems a decision that is not yours, can be thought as 'act of god' or 'chance', getting the shot is a conscious act and YOUR decision, and if anything goes wrong, it is YOU that has to regret taking it.

I understand that, but life is about choices you will regret or not anyway. Choosing not to get the vaccine is also your choice you may regret. And as the data shows above, the wise decision is to get a shot. We can only be as wise as the data. If a lot of people would die from getting that vaccine, do you think you can hide something like that on such a scale ? 43000 people is a small city ...

All in all the people that do not want to take the vaccine, for this particular bad virus, in the middle of a horrible pandemic and with this data about vaccine safety (43000 people some had headaches as side effect), are very puzzling to me and i have to say i respect it, but do not understand your choice.
Posted 12/10/2020 12:56 PM (GMT 0)
My wife works at a hospital and they told her yesterday that she needs to decide by tomorrow if she wants the vaccine or not. They are going to start giving them next week. She is leery of such a new vaccine but she is also worried about bringing the virus home. Many of her co workers are out with covid right now. She is leaning towards getting the vaccine. Two women she works with are pregnant and will not get vaccine. Another wants to get pregnant in the next year and heard the vaccine somehow prevents the embryo from adhering to the uterus so she won't be getting it either. Any truth to that?.
Posted 12/10/2020 1:18 PM (GMT 0)
https://www.dw.com/en/covid-19s-link-to-erectile-dysfunction/a-55862989

Ouch! Here's a good argument for getting the vaccine at least for guys. Lol I hear long term health effects and think yeah maybe but then I hear erectile dysfunction and I think OMG NO!
Posted 12/10/2020 2:27 PM (GMT 0)

WV Mike said...
The linked video is reminiscent of an episode of ancient aliens lol. ......................

Maybe the vaccine has bill Gates' home -planet alien DNA in it, so we can all be his children once and for all.
Posted 12/10/2020 2:31 PM (GMT 0)

potsnpans said...
I guess the ADE hasn't shown up in the trials so far, so that's a plus.

postpans, it hasnt shown up so far, because perhaps the people on the trials are still using safety measures, using masks, distance, etc and were not still infected. This must be considered. Only after people who were vaccinated get exposed to the wild virus again, can we really know if the ACE reaction happens or not. Problem is, people who got vaccinated were not still exposed to the virus in reallity, so just because it "hasn't shown up" doesnt mean it will not happen.

I just found this research published a couple of days ago: Just check it. I will quote the most relevant:

Source: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/21645515.2020.1845524

"Lv et al. demonstrate similar cross-reactivity between SARS-CoV-1 and SARS-CoV-2 infected patients and immunized mice. However, these antibodies were non-neutralizing to conserved epitopes in the ‘S’ protein of SARS-CoV-2. 55 Whether such non-neutralizing antibodies can lead to an ‘ADE’ like response in the future cannot be ruled out and hence needs to be evaluated carefully in the clinic.

The second mechanism is ‘vaccine-associated enhanced respiratory disease’ (VAERD). It is a distinct clinical syndrome that was noted in young children in the 1960s when inactivated measles virus and respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) vaccines were tested. This happened because the vaccines contained conformationally incorrect antigens, resulting in a relatively high ratio of binding Ab to neutralizing antibody that causes immune complex deposition and complement activation leading to worsening of respiratory disease. Another mechanism of VAERD could be allergic inflammation associated with the vaccine. "

People should wait more time and wait for the outcomes. Better safety will be available on february. There are other vaccines. I think the most concerning now are the mRNA vaccines
Posted 12/10/2020 2:44 PM (GMT 0)

TuffyR said...
1: I have no interest in any flu type yearly vaccine. Its a medical scam for profit.

Flu vaccines are 50% effective at best. These vaccines are supposedly 95% effective. I'm not currently under the impression that it will be an every year thing either as spike protein not likely to mutate.. immunity from natural infection may last "many years" and repeat covid-19 is supposedly more mild. See here:

"“That amount of (immune) memory would likely prevent the vast majority of people from getting hospitalized disease, severe disease, for many years,” Shane Crotty, a virologist at the La Jolla Institute of Immunology and co-leader of the study, told The Times."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/health/coronavirus-immunity.html

There is also reason to suspect that immunity provided by vax would last longer than that provided by natural infection:

"At day 119, the binding and neutralizing GMTs exceeded the median GMTs in a panel of 41 controls who were convalescing from Covid-19, with a median of 34 days since diagnosis (range, 23 to 54)"

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2032195

2: I have substantial questions about the efficacy and speedy development of any vaccine

What are your questions?

3: These vaccines were developed with previously unused mRNA process (might have the letters wrong,) the science was over my head. I won't buy a first year of a new car design so I'm going to be Guinea Pig for new method.

As far as I can tell the mRNA vaxes always failed due to the ADE it caused in some patients (this was brought up by isitlyme above).
Sticking with the car analogy: first year of new car design may have some issues yes.. but you still end up choosing and driving another vehicle, don't you? You may not be able to choose another vax.. with no vax you are choosing the likelihood of natural infection.

4: I have questions regarding the alleged use of aborted fetal tissue

It's irresponsible to write this without even providing a link.

5: One of the drug companies stated that one of the components of the their vaccine blocks the enzyme that allows embryos to adhere to womb. There was no comment on how strong this effect is or how long it would last, so if you're of child bearing age I wouldn't get it.

Please provide a link.

Post Edited (potsnpans) : 12/10/2020 8:54:11 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/10/2020 3:33 PM (GMT 0)
Nothing definitive here but it does touch on the infertility possibility with the vaccine.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pfizer-coronavirus-vaccine-not-safe-for-pregnant-or-breastfeeding-mums-potential-danger-for-fertility
Posted 12/10/2020 3:33 PM (GMT 0)

isitlyme said...
postpans, it hasnt shown up so far, because perhaps the people on the trials are still using safety measures, using masks, distance, etc and were not still infected. This must be considered. Only after people who were vaccinated get exposed to the wild virus again, can we really know if the ACE reaction happens or not. Problem is, people who got vaccinated were not still exposed to the virus in reallity, so just because it "hasn't shown up" doesnt mean it will not happen.


In theory I think they are getting exposed. I'm gonna make up these numbers to simplify the concept but say 100k people in a trial..

50k get vax
50k saline (no vax)

.. after a few months, 100 of the 100k total get covid-19.

..of those 100, 95% (95 people) were in the saline (no vax) group. 5% (5 people) were in the vax group.

So those 5 people from the vax group were certainly exposed (because they got covid-19) and it's reasonable to assume that both groups had the same amount of exposure.. In this made up case with made up numbers, we can estimate a minimum of 95 in the vax group were also exposed.

The number of those exposed in the real trials is higher and I believe the disease outcomes of those who've had the vax were better than those who had not.
Posted 12/10/2020 3:40 PM (GMT 0)

isitlyme said...
I just found this research published a couple of days ago: Just check it.


Haven't looked at it yet but I don't see how it could be accounting for data that was recently released by vax makers..

"Received 21 Jul 2020, Accepted 29 Oct 2020, Published online: 03 Dec 2020"
Posted 12/10/2020 3:45 PM (GMT 0)
postpans, i think you must agree that "theory" and statistics, doesn't work at all.

Only time, more trials, more studies more safety data, will tell the results. I would not rely on theories and statistics. If we make the assumption that people "were certainly exposed", this is only imaginary and a fantasy on our own minds, its not real...

Post Edited (isitlyme) : 12/10/2020 9:00:35 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/10/2020 3:53 PM (GMT 0)

potsnpans said...
Haven't looked at it yet but I don't see how it could be accounting for data that was recently released by vax makers..

All the data released, if any, is still lacking and very poor. Its could it be accountable. But now, there is simply no safety data about people exposed post vaccine, so the best is to trust what is more safe for now.. is it better to wait a little more time and see what happens in the real world infection, post vaccine, or get the vaccine now? Its up to ourselfs to decide. For me i will wait more time. Time is the best researcher of all the universe... it will give us the real results..

Post Edited (isitlyme) : 12/10/2020 9:01:20 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/10/2020 4:12 PM (GMT 0)
I'm confused now. I was talking about the data that was already released. I'm also waiting for more data. Is there some special way to analyze data that I don't know about?
Posted 12/10/2020 4:17 PM (GMT 0)
As an example, indeed we have some data from the trials from pfizer, like this,"Only eight of the infections were among volunteers given the real vaccine while the rest had received a dummy shot."

So the trials say that post vaccine, although a small number of people, they still got infected. Now, how are these people who were infected? Are they better, are they worst? The data from the trial doesnt say, or doesnt want to say.. i dont know. For example, the example of this trial, were only 8 got infected, part of the one who got the real vaccine, is based on the first 170 infections detected. The other 162 subjects infected of the entire trial, we still dont know if the problem was if they didn't apply safety measures and got infected because of that or if was because of the vaccine working.. or not even working at all. And the rest didnt got infected not because of the vaccine, but because they still applied safety measures? Its still too complicated to reach conclusions.

Post Edited (isitlyme) : 12/10/2020 9:24:35 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/10/2020 4:28 PM (GMT 0)
That doesnt mean i will avoid the vaccine, I will take it for sure, but i am just waiting for more real data. That is for me the best. I dont want to get exposed by the wild virus for sure, if you know what i mean, but i will take the vaccine. But not just now. Now is not the time, at least for me. Waiting more time, will give me the opportunity to see what is the best and more safe vaccine to take. For now, as i know, we only have two options, and even then we still have poor data about the safety and efficacy. The 90%, 95% well i just dont know

Post Edited (isitlyme) : 12/10/2020 9:32:19 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/10/2020 4:40 PM (GMT 0)
"Now, how are these people who were infected? Are they better, are they worst? The data from the trial doesnt say, or doesnt want to say.. i dont know"

I believe the disease outcomes of those who'd had the vax were better than those who had not, but I will have to search later to verify. Pretty sure the info is out there
Posted 12/10/2020 4:58 PM (GMT 0)

WV Mike said...
Another wants to get pregnant in the next year and heard the vaccine somehow prevents the embryo from adhering to the uterus so she won't be getting it either. Any truth to that?.

Let's try to think with our brains and not rely on others telling us what is truth or not:

The Vaccine (Pfizer) was tested on 43000 people. This is a fact.
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20201118005595/en/
That is a size of a small city. In a city over several months, you do happen to have pregnant women, seniors, children, cancer survivors, etc... All sorts of people.

The vaccine team reported the most severe reactions are headache and fatigue. No problems with pregnant women, women that want to become pregnant, births, miscarriages or any other thing.

Is there a chance you get pregnancy side effects from vaccine ? Sure, there is always a small chance. But out of 43000 people there were only minor side effects.

Is there a chance you get pregnant, you get covid, and then because u have both covid and pregnancy, higher chance to die of covid ? YES !
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/11/02/covid-pregnant-women-death/

Is there a chance for a preterm in you are pregnant and get COVID ? YES !
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6944e2.htm

So it sounds to me much more dangerous to not get a vaccine and get sick that get a vaccine for pregnant women or ... any kind of human being, pregnant or not.
Posted 12/10/2020 5:10 PM (GMT 0)
I am just looking at the live youtube FDA advisory panel considers emergency use approval of Pfizer vaccine at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjaefvedus8

I just saw one of the participant researchers showing this now, so it confirms what i have said. I guess its a good to see this and make some conclusions. I think it is still live. I captured an image of the conclusion from this researcher:

VIEW IMAGE

People should wait more time, the data is still too conflicting

Post Edited (isitlyme) : 12/10/2020 10:21:13 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 12/10/2020 5:30 PM (GMT 0)
More info about the fact that the prevention of the infection by the vaccine is not being evaluated... Also, subgroups and subpopulations are ignored on the trials. Check this FDA Panel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xtil9rupkg&feature=youtu.be&t=25751
Posted 12/10/2020 6:07 PM (GMT 0)

isitlyme said...
postpans, i think you must agree that "theory" and statistics, doesn't work at all.

Only time, more trials, more studies more safety data, will tell the results. I would not rely on theories and statistics. If we make the assumption that people "were certainly exposed", this is only imaginary and a fantasy on our own minds, its not real...


If you go back to my made up trial with made up numbers.. 50k people get vax, 50k get saline shot (no vax). Presumably no one in the trial knows what group they're in.. they don't know if they have been vaccinated or not. Everyone in the trial (both groups) goes on living their lives, masks, no masks, whatever...

This is why I said "in theory (those who were vaccinated) are getting exposed".

I had to qualify the statement by saying "in theory" only because it is not possible to measure levels of exposure within each group.
Posted 12/10/2020 6:12 PM (GMT 0)

mpost said...
In a city over several months, you do happen to have pregnant women, seniors, children, cancer survivors, etc... All sorts of people


I remember reading somewhere that there was no safety data on those under 16.. and people with known allergies to vax ingredients were not included in trials.

Pregnant women weren't included, were they? I skimmed through your link and didn't see the specifics...
Posted 12/10/2020 6:16 PM (GMT 0)

isitlyme said...
More info about the fact that the prevention of the infection by the vaccine is not being evaluated... Also, subgroups and subpopulations are ignored on the trials. Check this FDA Panel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xtil9rupkg&feature=youtu.be&t=25751


I'm curious but the video is 8 hours long. Is there a time I can skip to for that part of the discussion?
Posted 12/10/2020 6:21 PM (GMT 0)
I see what you mean. Lets hope we get more info about this.
Posted 12/10/2020 6:25 PM (GMT 0)

potsnpans said...

isitlyme said...

I'm curious but the video is 8 hours long. Is there a time I can skip to for that part of the discussion?

I think its the first conversation they are already speaking about it, were Doran Fink the FDA/CBER, Office of Vaccines - says: "I couldnt agree with you more", agree with what? that prevention of infection should be evaluated...
Posted 12/10/2020 6:28 PM (GMT 0)
Just when the video start he says that "I couldnt agree with you more", you can hear just that converstation, they speak about the fact that infection prevention was not evaluated, no one has a clue, you see what i mean?
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