Herx from probiotic

i sympathize - i had high hopes for it after reading all the bumph - but i also had similar symptoms when i took it - it wasn't unbearable but defo a fairly strong reaction so you know something is going on.

thing is - when the gut is messed up like ours - just about anything you add tends to make things worse. my guess is it's just inflamed, tight junctions are leaky and its not controlling its microbiome well - leading to lots of downstream effects.

for me, all probiotics give this effect to some degree. as do pre-biotics and antibiotics for teh first few weeks. i think i stuck it for about a month and thought whatever benefit i was going to get was likley to have happened by then if it was going to

looking back its hard to tell if i had any benefit - not a great deal is my general recollection.
my theory is whatever is wrecking my body's ability to manage the gut is at the root of it - and till i can address that i pretty much just have to minimize symptoms through diet and lifestyle.

one thing i noticed though is i can now tolerate homemade sauerkraut in fairly large doses - 1 heaped tablespoon 2 x a day - whereas before even a few strands would cause unending gurgling etc.

i think i have gradually built up a tolerance and as a result, gradually added a little more each day over maybe 6-9months without really thinking about it

perhaps you could tr the same with mutaflor - starting with less than gives you symptoms and gradually working up?

i wish i knew how to get at the root cause also - but on the plus side - the more things we try the more likley we are to find something - and if we compare notes on sites like this then the chances are multiplied

Update: Just had my meeting w/ Mary, NP whose diet I'm doing. She told me to table the Mutaflor, we will revisit in 3-6m. Said my body/immune system isnt strong enough yet, and the die off is overwhelming my liver. In 3-6m keto will have improved my immune system and gut health to the point where I will be able to handle it.

In addition, she mentioned that this is a mistake that she sees many lyme patients make. They do not introduce tolerance to their immune system through lifestyle and diet, and instead go right for the "killing things" approach, whereby they enter a pattern of continual antibiotic/antimicrobial treatment, which puts them in a constant state in and out of herxing, and they never get better. She advises them to back off and focus on diet and lifestyle, and only once theyve made significant improvement through that do they begin to treat the lyme. Very smart!

It was banned becuase of some weird discrepancy where it's considered a "biologic" instead of a supplement. I've read 4-5 papers on it, its extremely safe. This smells like more pharmaceutical lobbying. FDA is as corrupt as they come. If it puts people's ulcerative colitis into remission, you dont need that expensive cytokine inhibitor that costs $100k/year. Absolutely disgusting, the more examples i see of this kind of thing the more upset i get

I will. I disucssed it w/ Mary and we decided that I probably cant handle the FMT yet and it is something I may tolerate 6m down the line when my immune system is calmer. She also todesnt think i will need it.

I hear you regarding the infection. Something certainly throws off the gut. For some people its lyme, but It's probably different for different people. I just cant seem to locate an infection, other than in my gut. I have tried treating lyme and it doesnt help, at all. Almost seems like my gut was thrown off by something else. Be it the fact that i was born by c-section which screws up microbiome, or a bentofiamine deficiency, or metals, or genetics, or just diet. Dunno, but it does seem like it begins and ends in my stomach for me.

Interesting re: you and your partner. Def sounds like an infection. DId you guys get sick at the time?

I can def see how lyme alters the microbiome. Lyme -> inflammation -> autononomic dysfunction -> motility issues -> screwed up microbiome -> more inflammation and around she goes. Plus inflammation screws up energy metabolism, detoxification, and a whole host of other problems which have downstream affects on the microbiome.

I found Mary's comments regarding mistakes made w/ lyme interesting, and they made total sense. She said that a lot of people want to go straight to "killing things". SO they'll go on a powerful routine, which puts them in state of constant herx. But sometimes the immune system isnt prepared for it, so it stays suppressed and they never get better. Gotta get the immune system working. That takes lifestyle and diet changes first. So when she has someone who has been spinning their wheels, she takes a step back and goes to the basics first. Then you add the herbs and abx in when you can tolerate it. Thoguht that was interesting, because I can see it based on my experience with this mutaflor. I was herxing and getting worse, but was pretty sure i could have taken mutalfor forever w/o ever getting beyond the herx. My immune system wasnt ready.

I had 3 bands on the western blot. Dr K thinks I had exposure as a child growing up in CT. But he thinks the infection is cleared, and I am left w/ an autoimmune condition. We tried plaquenil+biaxin, doxy, bicillin, and a bunch of buhner herbs. No response. The autoimmunity also started after i got stomach sick in costa rica, which caused a 3 week bout of SIBO so bad i lost 15 lbs. My hydrogen levels were the highest the GI had ever seen, and boom the neuropathy started. Gut was off before that already tho, but again, it points to my gut.

Who knows, i find all this microbiome stuff fascinating. I'm on the right track w/ Keto, gonna hold off on the FMT, i may not need it (but knowing my curiosity i will probably try it at some point anyway). This diet has done wonders for me. Stopped the Mutaflor 2 days ago and neuropathy is almost gone again, back to keto calm

Post Edited (dcd2103) : 12/4/2020 4:42:53 AM (GMT-7)

dcd2103 said...


In addition, she mentioned that this is a mistake that she sees many lyme patients make. They do not introduce tolerance to their immune system through lifestyle and diet, and instead go right for the "killing things" approach, whereby they enter a pattern of continual antibiotic/antimicrobial treatment, which puts them in a constant state in and out of herxing, and they never get better. She advises them to back off and focus on diet and lifestyle, and only once theyve made significant improvement through that do they begin to treat the lyme. Very smart!

Big yes on this. There are so much things you can do with lifestyle changes that dont leads to herxing (atleast not that much) Thats what Im working on, as I tend to herx on even very tiny amounts.

Thanks insomniaa, you could be right. That’s not a bad idea. Adding in anti microbials is something I’ve considered. They do flare my neuropathy, so I’m hesitant, but I think I may have to at some point. Then add in the mutaflor once I have bacterial levels lowered.

Soke good herbs are oil of oregano, Berberine, undeleic acid, garlic extract, neem. Probably want a broad spectrum w a few in it.