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Lyme Disease
How did your chronic illness respond to the vaccine?
No uptick in symptoms/would recommend - 61.5% - 8 votes
Temporary uptick in symtoms/would recommend - 30.8% - 4 votes
Long term uptick in symtoms/new autoimmune symptoms/would not recommend - 7.7% - 1 votes
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Posted 4/27/2021 5:38 PM (GMT 0)

dcd2103 said...
So CDC is assuming its not ADE, w/ no evidence. Do you have evidence that it IS ADE? I am willing to change my mind if you have evidence.

Thats the problem. It has not been investigated, but you can see for your self that this is already happening in many people, elderly, young women, men etc. Why? Because many of them around the world already died or are still dying, one week or two after the vaccine, and you will see that virtually all these cases, are blamed to be from covid infection and that the vaccine had not yet had time to build antibodies and because of that the covid killed them. This is a strong sign that it might be ADE that had killed and still are killing people if they catch covid short time after the vaccine. So, although there is not yet direct evidence that, all these thousands of cases that already happened, and are still happening, are ADE related, their death shortly after vaccination and reinfection shortly after, strongly suggests ADE.

After a short time post vaccination, their system had already built some antibodies, so that when they are challenged again with infection, the infection is more lethal than if they were not vaccinated at all.

Again, the problem is that they didn't bother to investigated it, so its ignorant, irresponsible and criminal. Why? Because, instead of searching evidence for problems with the vaccine, like ADE and dozens of other problems, they are going in the wrong direction and search for evidence that the vaccine was never the cause, they are doing the opposite of what they are supposed to do for people safety.. They are working hard for the defendant and not for the plaintiff, that´s why they will never warrant human safety. Vaccine = defendant, people=plaintiff, that´s what is real happening here.. But more evidence will show up, its a matter of time.

Post Edited (isitlyme) : 4/27/2021 11:44:00 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/27/2021 5:55 PM (GMT 0)
isitlyme: ADE is defined by a more severe infection for vaccinated, than infection for unvaccinated.

You may be able to find individual cases where someone who was recently vaccinated got sick and died.. but whenever I have seen vaccinated compared to unvaccinated, the unvaccinated fare much worse. In fact, often 100% of vaccinated avoid severe infection/death (when groups are compared).
Posted 4/27/2021 6:04 PM (GMT 0)

dcd2103 said...
So CDC is assuming its not ADE, w/ no evidence according to you. Do you have evidence that it IS ADE? I am willing to change my mind if you have evidence. Not stuck in my position, I just need data, not gonna take your word for it.

And just one more think, its not according to me, its according to what is not being told to anyone on earth, wish is:

Nor CDC, nor FDA, nor PFIZER, not ANY big pharma, bothered to real investigate ADE in animals and now, not in humans, unless, like i already asked you and pots, to give me evidence that they have done that..

If you find claims like this ones: "To date, there's really no evidence of ADE with the COVID-19 vaccines. It's all theoretical," he said." Then, there is only one thing right in this claim, wish is "It's all theoretical".

This is only the usual "try to escape liability" claim to avoid being exposed by scientific investigation it self and by using theoretical mambo jambo and meaningless answers..

Post Edited (isitlyme) : 4/27/2021 12:22:09 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/27/2021 6:19 PM (GMT 0)

potsnpans said...
isitlyme: ADE is defined by a more severe infection for vaccinated, than infection for unvaccinated.

You may be able to find individual cases where someone who was recently vaccinated got sick and died.. but whenever I have seen vaccinated compared to unvaccinated, the unvaccinated fare much worse. In fact, often 100% of vaccinated avoid severe infection/death (when groups are compared).

From what i have seen, we already are seeing thousands of people vaccinated compared to unvaccinated, were the infection in vaccinated, is much more worse than unvaccinated and they die. Altough the sole determinant of severe COVID-19 cannot be attrbuted to ADE alone, we can find many, many suggestive cases, as i already mentioned.

Definition for ADE related to COVID:

- Antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE) is a phenomenon in which antibodies elicited by infection wish paradoxically promote both viral replication and an overly exuberant immune response upon exposure to a new infecting. Anti-coronavirus antibodies are probably present in many people (vaccinated people) and ADE may occur during SARS-CoV-2 reinfection and lead to severe symptoms.

Post Edited (isitlyme) : 4/27/2021 12:24:01 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/27/2021 6:29 PM (GMT 0)
"From what i have seen, we already are seeing thousands of people vaccinated compared to unvaccinated, were the infection in vaccinated, is much more worse than unvaccinated and they die"

Where have you seen this then? I've already posted link to Pfizer data that shows the opposite. I know you've seen many other real world studies I've posted that show the opposite.. why exactly are we talking about this?
Posted 4/27/2021 6:37 PM (GMT 0)
ADE related to vaccines were studied in the past decade in many animal models and let me tell you again: They failed and ADE made the disease in animals much and exponentially more worst that without any vaccine at all. Thats why coronaviruses vaccines are being studied for so many years and never passed the animal trials. They always failed. So people may wonder, why haven't they done the same investigation during animal trials for all covid vaccines now? Did they already knew that this investigation would compromise their vaccines and cancel them in the first place? The omission of this fundamental study strongly suggests that.. They knew it will only made vaccine request for approval, useless. So, unless anybody proves me wrong and tell me why they didn't dare to test ADE in animal models, i am assuming they avoid this investigation on purpose.

I will give you just one of many tentative failures to study covid vaccine effectiveness in animals in the past decade:

https://www.jimmunol.org/content/181/9/6337.short
Posted 4/27/2021 6:41 PM (GMT 0)

potsnpans said...
"From what i have seen, we already are seeing thousands of people vaccinated compared to unvaccinated, were the infection in vaccinated, is much more worse than unvaccinated and they die"

Where have you seen this then? I've already posted link to Pfizer data that shows the opposite. I know you've seen many other real world studies I've posted that show the opposite.. why exactly are we talking about this?

Well its easy, remember the hundreds of elderly nursing homes, were countless of elderly, died shortly taking the covid vaccines? I know you remember.. and this cases are only the few of thousands that were reported in the last wave of December/January/February, etc, etc. we cannot imagine the cases that were not reported and automatically discarded by hundreds of "have no clue" doctors who discarded the vaccine as being the culprit and blaming covid instead...

Just remember the numbers you heard everyday then, how much of them were vacinated and after one week or two died from severe covid infection? They dont say it, do they? Because they say the vaccine was not to blame, they say the person did not built antibodies in time... without showing evidence they didnt...

Post Edited (isitlyme) : 4/27/2021 12:47:07 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/27/2021 6:47 PM (GMT 0)
"they" doesn't collectively exist in my mind.

..and you need to compare vaccinated to unvaccinated, rather than compile anecdotes
Posted 4/27/2021 7:25 PM (GMT 0)

potsnpans said...
"they" doesn't collectively exist in my mind.

..and you need to compare vaccinated to unvaccinated, rather than compile anecdotes

If you are just going to use words and or predictions of risks, wish cannot be predicted in the context of ARR/ART/ARC data, but only analyzed, forget it.

Anyway i wil ask you if you please, give me evidence that Moderna, Pfizer or any other covid vaccine animal experiments, were animals had been immunologically primed beforehand, so auto-attack (ADE) has been excluded in animals and that the same exclusion is being investigated in severe symptoms and deaths happening in humans after vaccinations.

Post Edited (isitlyme) : 4/27/2021 1:46:29 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/27/2021 7:52 PM (GMT 0)
Give me proof that the vaccine isn't turning people into penguins! Well it may not exist, but there's no reason to suspect it is turning them into penguins in the first place.

Similarly, you havent been able to provide any proof that the vaccines are causing ADE's in the first place. Yet you have laid down the gauntlet for us to show studies exist to prove that this thing you cant prove, and no other data suggests is happening, isnt happening. Kind of backwards way of going about it. "Hey i've got no proof ADEs are happening, but its on you to prove to me theyre not". Show me data that suggests people are dying from ADEs.

The ADE isnt specific to a vaccine. If you were to get covid and survive, and develop antibodies, you could be vulnerable to an ADE should an unlikely variant arise that can take advantage of that. So this isnt a risk to vaccines only. ADEs can happen in nature, and the fact that the vaccine manufacturers were considering this specific scenario makes me think it may be less likely w/ the vaccine than with immunity aquired by previous infection. Just spitballing there, however, I dont think anyone knows, but its a logical conclusion. It follows that you're basically arguing that immunity of any kind is a bad thing and you dont want it, because you could end up vulnerable to an ADE. Well, then youre going to have to do your best to avoid getting this thing at all costs. Good luck living a normal life ever again, because it's here to stay.

Post Edited (dcd2103) : 4/27/2021 2:04:15 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/27/2021 8:41 PM (GMT 0)

dcd2103 said...
Give me proof that the vaccine isn't turning people into penguins! Well it may not exist, but there's no reason to suspect it is turning them into penguins in the first place.

Comparing penguins with ADE? Unless they studied if vaccinated rats would turn into penguins. smile. No, dcd, they havent done Frankestein like studies, they tested for a simple think called.. ADE (Antibody disease enhancement due to vaccine generated antibodies)


dcd2103 said...
The ADE isnt specific to a vaccine. If you were to get covid and survive, and develop antibodies, you could be vulnerable to an ADE should an unlikely variant arise that can take advantage of that. So this isnt a risk to vaccines only. ADEs can happen in nature, and the fact that the vaccine manufacturers were considering this specific scenario makes me think it may be less likely w/ the vaccine than with immunity aquired by previous infection. Just spitballing there, however, I dont think anyone knows, but its a logical conclusion. It follows that you're basically arguing that immunity of any kind is a bad thing and you dont want it, because you could end up vulnerable to an ADE. Well, then youre going to have to do your best to avoid getting this thing at all costs. Good luck living a normal life ever again, because it's here to stay.

Dcd, let me explain, do you realize that the antibody titters and response from vaccines are much, much, much, much more stronger and greater than antibody production from wild virus and therefore the ADE response is even more stronger on vaccinated? And that´s why vaccinated are more at risk, due to exponentially more stronger and severer ADE than ADE from natural infection. I never said ADE was exclusive to vaccines. Thats why vacinated animals in past studies had worst outcomes from ADE than unvacinated animals.

Post Edited (isitlyme) : 4/27/2021 5:50:52 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/27/2021 9:00 PM (GMT 0)
At this stage, I wouldn't expect any more resources to be put towards researching "Antibody Disease Enhancement" unless first there is evidence of "Disease Enhancement". Right now, only evidence to the contrary (the few "breakthrough" cases in vaccinated less severe than in unvaccinated). This has also been true for those with repeat natural infections.. they usually fare better the second time around.

Edit: I just checked out the study posted above regarding the first SARS virus and noticed:

"These results suggest that an excessive host immune response against the nucleocapsid protein of SARS-CoV is involved in severe pneumonia caused by SARS-CoV infection"

So that was probably one of the earliest studies directing vax development efforts for SARS-CoV-2 towards the spike protein, and away from the nucleocapsid protein.

Post Edited (potsnpans) : 5/5/2021 6:22:20 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/27/2021 9:06 PM (GMT 0)
Where's your proof for this? I dont think they know.

W/ natural immunity your body makes many different types of antibodies and memory b cells to different proteins on the virus. W/ the vaccine they show it only a few proteins known to elicit an effective response. Yes they choose an antigen most likely to elicit a strong response, but it's nothing that your body wouldnt see had it been exposed to a virus naturally. Yes they use an adjuvant, but thats out of your system quickly. Someone w/ natural immunity may have more types of antibodies and better coverage, but neither has "stronger" antibodies. They may just be different ones w/ natural vs vaccine induced, but some of them will be the same.

In addition, now youre arguing that "stronger" antibodies from the vaccine makes for higher risk of ADE. Do you have proof for that? In addition, youre once again arguing that "stronger" immunity is worse. Cant have it both ways, do you want to be immune or not?

The way in which the vaccine could cause a problem here isnt through the mechanism you stated, "stronger antibodies". It could happen because the vaccine creates less thorough coverage, and its possible one of the antibodies it creates is a trojan horse. For example, with a typical immune response memory b cells and t cells are trained to recognize many antigens/proteins on the pathogen. With a vaccine, you are feeding it a very small piece of the virus = fewer, very specific antibodies. If one of those antibodies happens to be a non-neutralizing, trojan horse antibody, you'd have less of an immune response able to recognize other parts of the virus to step in and prevent the ADE from occuring. I will give you that, that is possible. But again, no proof that this has happened.
Posted 4/28/2021 1:30 AM (GMT 0)

dcd2103 said...
Where's your proof for this? I dont think they know.

W/ natural immunity your body makes many different types of antibodies and memory b cells to different proteins on the virus. W/ the vaccine they show it only a few proteins known to elicit an effective response. Yes they choose an antigen most likely to elicit a strong response, but it's nothing that your body wouldnt see had it been exposed to a virus naturally. Yes they use an adjuvant, but thats out of your system quickly. Someone w/ natural immunity may have more types of antibodies and better coverage, but neither has "stronger" antibodies. They may just be different ones w/ natural vs vaccine induced, but some of them will be the same.

In addition, now youre arguing that "stronger" antibodies from the vaccine makes for higher risk of ADE. Do you have proof for that? In addition, youre once again arguing that "stronger" immunity is worse. Cant have it both ways, do you want to be immune or not?

The way in which the vaccine could cause a problem here isnt through the mechanism you stated, "stronger antibodies". It could happen because the vaccine creates less thorough coverage, and its possible one of the antibodies it creates is a trojan horse. For example, with a typical immune response memory b cells and t cells are trained to recognize many antigens/proteins on the pathogen. With a vaccine, you are feeding it a very small piece of the virus = fewer, very specific antibodies. If one of those antibodies happens to be a non-neutralizing, trojan horse antibody, you'd have less of an immune response able to recognize other parts of the virus to step in and prevent the ADE from occuring. I will give you that, that is possible. But again, no proof that this has happened.

The evidence that this can only happen on vaccinated groups, was already provided in previous animal studied sars-cov models, comparing vaccinated mice vs unvaccinated groups and post challenge with wild virus:

"They reported that lung mononuclear infiltrates were observed in all groups after virus challenge, and that increased infiltrates that contained eosinophils and the eosinophil promoting IL-5 and IL-13 cytokines were observed only in the vaccinated animals.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/s2589909020300186#bib6

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/21645515.2016.1177688

As i suspect this may be already happening, but it has not been investigated as such. The fact is that there are many reports of people that had the shot and got infected shortly after, got severe disease or died.

Was it because of a stronger ADE? The vaccine/infection seems to suggest so. There are previous animal studies wish show that it can happen. As i said, until this is not investigated they will never know. The problem is not that there is "no proof that this has happened", but that there is no proof that is has not happened. I said people vaccinated could be at are more at risk, based on past experiences of animal studies. Cases happening suggest so, but no one can give direct evidence until this is investigated, wish they wont for the obvious reasons i already mentioned.
Posted 4/28/2021 3:11 AM (GMT 0)
Usually only important figures are showing up in the press and TV with these cases, despite being fully vaccinated. So for me, these cases, specially for common people around the world, could already have reached thousands,but they are not considered important to the elites and worthy to show up in the press. I might be wrong but this could be only the tip of the iceberg.

I am just showing this for the awareness of everyone and warning to be very careful of what is happening around you, because despite all the vaccine euphoria and 24 hour /7 days interviews with vaccinated people, celebrities selfies and so on, all this could be proven to be a complete false sense of security, and in the end it could mean absolutely nothing..

To add for the awareness, i will only show a recent example from an important figure and what happened to him. He is a perfect example that reflects what is and can happen to many more. Many examples like this will and already are showing up, like mushrooms, mainly important figures, because most of the common people, die alone and loose their families and loved ones. In the other hand, the ones (press, health agencies, medical doctors, experts) who washed their brains 24/7 hours, pushing them to vaccinations, are not there now to support the family, to give them comfort. They will never ever be, unless a member of the family is not vaccinated yet, they will call him 24/7 to book an appointment, so he can get the shot, but if he dies after the shot they will never make a call to apologize or give some type of comfort.. This makes me remember the Lost TV series where they used to say: "live together, die alone" and that is the reality happening in all the world..

https://www.timesofisrael.com/alber-elbaz-top-israeli-fashion-icon-and-ex-lanvin-director-dies-of-covid/

Post Edited (isitlyme) : 4/27/2021 9:14:28 PM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/28/2021 10:16 AM (GMT 0)
I agree sandyfeet, i didnt create this poll to turn it into more "vaccine battles", was supposed to be about people sharing their experiences with the vaccine. But I got sucked into the argument again, my fault. Lets stick w/ the original intent.

I'm surprised only 6 people have tried it and responded!
Posted 4/28/2021 10:52 AM (GMT 0)
i agree wholeheartedly with Sandyfeet!

i think the lengthy debate into this territory will likely put people off from posting their experiences in the poll which would be a shame.
Posted 4/28/2021 12:53 PM (GMT 0)
I agree too, this thread like all other threads about this topic or treatments for covid, should be restricted the the Headline (Pool or title). Many threads like this were already posted about asking how a vaccine or a treatment influences our chronic diseases or specifically, Lyme disease. The only difference from other threads compared to similar threads like this, and this surprises me, is that it wasn't locked yet. The main difference was that the locked threads were specifically threads or posts that could compromise vaccines or suggest effective treatments for covid like ivermectin. So i wonder why this thread isn't locked yet.. If not, great, we all agree on this.
Posted 4/28/2021 1:02 PM (GMT 0)
"A shame" is exactly the way to put it, Garzie. I think people don't want to participate in a COVID vaccine-related post on this forum because what they invariably devolve into lately is not something most people want to participate in or find productive.

A thread about the actual experiences of people with Lyme who have had one of the vaccines is super necessary and important. I think everyone on the forum is totally aware of what particular members think about COVID vaccines, but no one on this thread is asking about that. This thread is for people who actually have had the vaccines.

People who have Lyme and want to get the COVID vaccine should have a place where they can ask questions about preparing for it, which vaccine to choose, what to expect, and what helps if they have lingering reactions. It's deeply disappointing to me that a very small number of people are not allowing that to occur.

The admin has asked me in no uncertain terms to lock or delete threads that don't relate to the original post or that promote conspiracy theories and political activism. Dcd, as the original poster, would you like for me to "prune" this post accordingly?

Let's respect the intent of these posts, please.
Posted 4/28/2021 1:09 PM (GMT 0)
Yes saraeli, I would love for you to prune the thread. I was wishing I could do that myself. I was one of the offenders, co-opting my own post, and for that I apologize. Lets prune it and allow it to do its original intended job.

Also saraeli, is there a reason why some people who havent voted are unable to see the results?
Posted 4/28/2021 1:35 PM (GMT 0)
It was never my intent to perpetuate an off topic discussion here. I'd be happy to see all off topic comments removed (including this one smile).
Posted 4/28/2021 5:05 PM (GMT 0)

1000Daisies said...
This post seems oblivious to the mods/admins perpetuating the problem by *inconsistently* locking and deleting other threads. Thus, conversations carry over to other threads. And will continue to do so. This problem will be ongoing on this board until the inconsistent censoring on this board is resolved.

Maybe if the other threads weren't deleted and/or locked, this type of conversation can stay more isolated. This would easily allow folks to skip the conversation/thread. But alas, that is not allowed to happen by the mods/admins. Again, this is just perpetuating the problem.

For the record, just because somebody disagrees doesn't mean it's promoting "conspiracy theories". Also, we go off tangent *all the time* on other threads, and those threads aren't "pruned" (eg censored). And the censorship here (and inconsistent implementation of the so-called forum rules) is indeed a "shame".

And with that, *poof* will go this message. Thus proving my point. : /

Totally agree, If someone created a pool thread like this one, but with the title "Anti-vaccine pool", it would almost certainly be immediately deleted or locked. Perhaps we should create one, i suspect that compared to this pool many more people, would participate. People must understand that the mess wish is being uncovered and happening with these unsafe vaccines, starts to be more and more obvious trough time, and hesitancy is growing more and more. There are already reports about that.

Well, these growing number of people are smarter than all the entities that promote covid vaccines, thought they would be, they have figure it out that its better to do the same what health agencies and governments advised them to do, wish is if they "suspend the vaccines", then people may as well suspend their decision to take it... wish is what they are doing. The more locks the more threads will be posted.
Posted 4/28/2021 5:09 PM (GMT 0)

isitlyme said...


Totally agree, If someone created a pool thread like this one, but with the title "Anti-vaccine pool", it would almost certainly be immediately deleted or locked. Perhaps we should create one, i suspect that compared to this pool many more people, would participate. People must understand that the mess wish is being uncovered and happening with these unsafe vaccines, starts to be more and more obvious trough time, and hesitancy is growing more and more. There are already reports about that.

Well, these growing number of people are smarter than all the entities that promote covid vaccines, thought they would be, they have figure it out that its better to do the same what health agencies and governments advised them to do, wish is if they "suspend the vaccines", then people may as well suspend their decision to take it... wish is what they are doing. The more locks the more threads will be posted.

While I get frustrated by our differing opinions on the absolute exact same data, I do agree with you guys that vaccine safety is very relevant to lyme and you should be able to discuss it. I wish that you wouldnt hijack other threads, but as you pointed out that's probably because you dont have another thread to discuss it on.

I think a vaccine pro/con thread should be open and we should keep that conversation to that thread. Just my personal opinion.

I would also like this thread to be pruned so it reflects its original intent.
Posted 4/28/2021 6:57 PM (GMT 0)

k07 said...
Pots - my parents had 1st shot and got infected a few weeks later. My dad, who has several bad things already going for him (overweight, heart disease, prediabetic), ended up in the hospital. Very rough. Three weeks later he’s better but very up and down still. My mom had a rough time but was able to stay home. So I’m really not sure how much the 1 shot helped.

Wow - that’s a shame!
We aren’t hearing about those cases.
Posted 5/5/2021 9:01 PM (GMT 0)
Bump for votes
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