Is it true that mold in the nose can't make mycotoxins?

Hello HealingWell,
I'm a bit confused and would really appreciate any thoughts on this.
I was reading this article on mold in the nose: http://biotoxinjourney.com/nasal-antifungals/
It reads:

"Roughly 90% of people with and without health issues have some level of mold in their noses. In addition, the mold in people’s nasal cavity and sinuses simply does not have enough water to make mycotoxins. The water activity (Aw) needs to be around 80% for mold to make mycotoxins. It’s about 20% in nasal and sinus mucus. That’s not nearly enough of freely available water."

Is that true?
Thank you!

However, I do believe mold illness is real.
An extreme example would be this:

If you were to cover walls in mold and lock 10 people up in a room for 7 days, at least 1 person is bound to get very sick. I don't doubt that.

I also think that some people are extra sensitive to it. Just like some people have food allergies to things like gluten. The same can happen to sensitivity to breathing in mold.

I also know it lowers the immune system. Pretty sure it would be easy to dig up studies on that.

But the part where I get stuck is, how do you know when it applies to you? Does it stay in the body when you are no longer in that room? For how long? Is the testing reliable? Can it colonize in your body? etc.

McLovin said...
Hello HealingWell,
I'm a bit confused and would really appreciate any thoughts on this.
I was reading this article on mold in the nose: http://biotoxinjourney.com/nasal-antifungals/
It reads:

"Roughly 90% of people with and without health issues have some level of mold in their noses. In addition, the mold in people’s nasal cavity and sinuses simply does not have enough water to make mycotoxins. The water activity (Aw) needs to be around 80% for mold to make mycotoxins. It’s about 20% in nasal and sinus mucus. That’s not nearly enough of freely available water."

Is that true?
Thank you!

I have no idea if it’s true or not. I am confident that it’s true that patients with chronic nasal or sinus issues may have infections of all kinds somewhere in their heads. They may also have cavitation infections in their jawbones. In fact, I would go that route first instead of last if I had money to do so.

I, personally, spent a couple years making no real progress until I started Rx oral antifungals.

about that article:

* It’s old - 2015. A lot has happened since then. Shoemaker’s protocol for CIRS has since fallen out of favor. Many previously Shoemaker certified practitioners have left him and formed ISEAI after they did not find Shoemaker’s findings to be consistently reproducible in their own patient populations.

* Greg, the blog writer, was a patient of Shoemaker’s and personally staked a lot on Shoemaker’s protocol and studies being accurate, although he did research and experiment with other methods, as well.

* There is a definite personal animosity between Shoemaker and Nathan and Brewer. Nathan, in the last year or so, said on his website that he may reconsider Shoemaker’s methods again. He doesn’t think Shoemaker’s work is worthless. He does think it’s incomplete and not as reproducible as Shoemaker believes.

(My personal interpretation of Shoemaker vs the doctors who left or opposed him is this: I HIGHLY suspect those doctors were nowhere near as strict as Shoemaker in following the protocol and especially in having their patients do ERMI testing on home and office and making them understand re-exposure and how it negates and prolongs treatment. I also know that Shoemaker is missing a lot and is too rigid.)

* Strangely enough, the extreme mold avoiders group (Petrison, Johnson, etc) also do not (or did not) embrace the validity of mycotoxin urine testing. They don’t follow Shoemaker either.

P.S. - I will come back and comment on the other posts later.

skinny_joe said...

I also corresponded with the lab director whose written words were "Only about 2% or less of our mycotoxin samples have all the results in the normal range."

Whats the point in a test if thats the case!!!

I think that’s poor logic. This is not a standard test that family doctors do on all their patients every year. These tests are out of pocket around $300+ each. Why would a person who is not sick and has no known or suspected exposure to water damaged buildings have this test done?

McLovin said...

I have been in treatment for 3 years and I feel great! I just did a follow-up test, and my Ochratoxin level is 15 ppb! It was completely negative 6 months ago. What happened?

Realtime labs answered this:

Are you still under treatment? If yes, it might be working and your body is detoxifying the mycotoxins. Are you still in the same environment? Talk to your healthcare provider.

That's something that doesn't sit well with me to be very honest. Here's how I see that answer:

feeling great * detoxing = high mycotoxin result

But if we apply that logic to a healthy person, wouldn't it be the same?

healthy person * detoxing = high mycotoxin result

As to WHY this lady who is now feeling great 3 years into treatment has a whopping high mycotoxin level, we don’t know. There’s not enough information given here to draw any conclusions. You’re not likely to find any rigid scientific research applicable here. “Detox” is practically a taboo word in mainstream medicine, and mainstream medicine continues to ignore or avoid the effects of mold and mycotoxins on human health in spite of the hefty research available on its effects on livestock. I am pretty sure that all of that research is in relation to feed contaminated or hay contamination.

There’s nothing really accepted by mainstream medicine in regards to the affects of mold or mycotoxins found inside buildings on human health other than articles published by Shoemaker, Brewer, Dennis, Lieberman, and others who have treated mold illness, sick building syndrome, CIRS, etc.

If you want the TRUTH, mold inside buildings is a problem that must be dealt with. Modern society likes to ignore this, but God Himself gave instructions about mold remediation when He gave Moses the laws of sanitation. You can find it in the Bible in Leviticus 14:33-53. The King James Version translates the original Hebrew word as leprosy. Here’s an interesting Bible commentary on the passage: https://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/macmillan/leprosy_of_house_and_garments.htm

McLovin said...

I left out one variable, which is 'treatment' in example #1. Because if that is a variable that's valid, then a healthy person's immune system should also be a variable, no?
Unless treatment is not equal to immune system, but if that's accurate, then in reverse, every person in a moldy environment should be sick. It just appears like they admitted the testing isn't valid. Or at the very least that they always have an "out" for unpredictable results. Am I completely wrong here about the testing?

If I understand what you’re saying, my response is No, treatment is not equal to immune system. According to Shoemaker, there are often genetic haplotypes involved which get “switched on” by something - often an acute infection or Lyme disease. That’s not to say a person has to have one of these genetic haplotypes to be sickened by mold or mycotoxins or water damaged buildings. Mycotoxins, themselves, are toxic. They are harmful, period.

How they affect individual human beings will depend on many factors - genetic activations; total toxin load; infections like Lyme/co that suppress the immune system and ALTER the immune response and cause general dysregulation among many body systems including the detoxification systems; species of molds and mycotoxins (they are not all equal); quantity of mycotoxins in exposure (quantity among mycotoxins is not equal); length of exposure; and more factors like the presence of heavy metals in the person’s body and the levels of EMF in the environment and the presence of pathogenic bacteria, viruses, and other microbial byproducts present in the water damaged building. The effects of these factors are synergistic and cumulative.

McLovin said...
Mold has definitely affected me, but I just have my doubts about the testing and some of the claims.

Understood. You are blessed in that you are aware that mold affects you. Many are affected but are still not aware. That awareness is a valuable tool. If you can tell when you are being exposed to mold, that’s a huge benefit that can help you avoid exposure.

The bottom line is mold inside of buildings is bad. It is a health hazard (and a hazard to the structure of the building). End of story.

It’s a dangerous idea to think that because mold is ubiquitous that it’s okay if every building has mold. Then you get into the reasoning of how much is too much. Mold spores are everywhere because they exist in the air outdoors, but mold GROWTH in building structures is not. Every building doesn’t have mold, although in some places it seems that way. Those that don’t have mold eventually will.

It’s hard to reason with those in the remediation industry, because they rely 100% on air sample testing and moisture readings. Air sample testing is inherently flawed, and moisture readings are only useful if it’s done during a time when the moisture is present.

It’s time for constructiom industry and building maintenance practices and mold remediation ideologies to change. Changing people’s minds is the greatest barrier standing in the way.

McLovin said...

But the part where I get stuck is, how do you know when it applies to you? Does it stay in the body when you are no longer in that room? For how long? Is the testing reliable? Can it colonize in your body? etc.

All valid questions. Unfortunately, I don’t have any proven answers. I will respond based on my own experience and learning on the subject.

If you can tell when you are exposed to mold, then it definitely applies to you. You are sensitized at that point.

If you are unsure if mold is a factor in your health, then use as many of the available tools as you can and put them together to look at the big picture. Available tools include:

- known exposure (current or past) to water damaged buildings or moldy environments (including occupational exposure)
- known leaks that have occurred in the building (current or past)
- Shoemaker’s panel of tests https://www.survivingmold.com/resources-for-patients/diagnosis/lab-tests
- Great Plains or Realtime Labs mycotoxin testing
- Great Plains OAT test
-ERMI or HERTSMI-2 testing on home and workplace (can post results here; there are numerous ways to evaluate the results of these tests - don’t rely on only one angle of evaluation)
- other mold testing (air samples, tape samples, mold plates, mold dog, inspection done by a qualified IEP)
——————-
Does it stay in the body when you are no longer in that room? For how long?

- Yes, until your immune system identifies it and your detoxification system eliminates it. If there’s a mold source in the building, then exposure can quickly build up, overwhelming your detox system. If your immune system is impaired, it may not do what a normal person’s immune system would do under the same circumstances.

- In CIRS, according to Shoemaker, even after removal from exposure, treatment is needed (hence, the Shoemaker protocol) to remove the toxins and rectify the system malfunctions.
——————-
Is the testing reliable?

- I have found the Great Plains and Realtime Labs mycotoxin testing to be reliable. I tested twice with Realtime and once with Great Plains. My mother (who does not have Lyme but does have mold symptoms) tested twice with Realtime. Our tests were done together and in conjunction with ERMI testing on our environment. The mycotoxin testing corresponded with the mold identified on the ERMI. I spent 18 months taking liposomal glutathione and Pectasol-C and charcoal and 11 days taking Cholestyramine. My gliotoxin, which was the only positive I initially had, went to zero.

My mother did a month of Welchol and nothing else. Her levels were the same or higher. She made no effort to practice mold avoidance. I made strong efforts to avoid moldy buildings. We lived in the same house during that time and were exposed to lesser and different molds there than in the house we left behind.
———————
Can it colonize in your body?

- I am inclined to believe it can. Oral Nystatin and Fluconazole helped me. Until I started taking TUDCA, I had horrible toxic symptoms that often flared with bowel movements. Sometimes I would feel relief during a BM only to get a wave of toxic symptoms shortly after. I suspect toxins were getting recycled into the blood stream at the end of the bowel tract, and I could feel their noxious effects. For years, I felt like I had a built-in toxin producing factory in my gut.

I appreciate you WalkingbyFaith. That's very kind of you to explain all of this to me. You're a kind person. Additionally, I want to thank you for pointing me to Leviticus 14:33-53 🙏 🙂

I apologize if part of me dismissed the mold probabilities (for a lack of better words) too fast. It comes from a place of frustration and that is never a good place to reason from.

If I may ask a few more questions. You mentioned that you believe mold can colonize in the body. I don't disagree with that (although to be honest I just don't know), but I wasn't sure if it could specifically colonize in the nose due to the low amount of water as mentioned in the article. It's a concern of mine because my nose is always stuffy.

On the page I linked, the patient of Shoemaker mentioned that the nasal sprays might be working because part of it drips down into the stomach and has systemic effects. That makes sense to me. I was curious to know what your thoughts on that is?

He also mentioned the nasal spray might be blocking small particles of mold inhalation from entering the brain. That seems like a bit of a stretch to me. But then again, it might be possible. What do you think?

One final question (I promise), what are your thoughts on what determines if someone is affected by mold or not? As far as I'm aware, and I could be wrong, some people live with mold in their house but don't seem to be affected.

Thank you again.

”some people live with mold in their house but don't seem to be affected”

Yes. Absolutely true. I am from the southeast, where mold is a way of life. I have likely been exposed to mold in buildings my whole life. I spent much time in my grandparents house growing up. I remember strange smells in the kitchen and bathroom that made me feel worried and uneasy. I remember the smells of antique shops. I remember visiting places in my childhood where I felt very strange in my head or body and fearful. In my college years, I remember getting trapped in a flash flood and spending several hours inside a stranger’s house. I could barely breathe there was so much mold in the air in that house. It was in a neighborhood known for flooding.

I believe I have always had sensitivity to mold and chemicals, even though I was still “healthy” and functional. It didn’t become life altering until 2015 following an upper respiratory infection.

There was one time before that in 2001 that I am almost positive I was experiencing mold illness unknowingly. I had moved back to my parents’ home into my old bedroom. The flat roof over that room had rotted and caved in through the ceiling about 10 years before. The roof and carpet were the only things removed and replaced. No mold cleaning or inspection or testing was done. Within 2 weeks of moving back into that room, I started experiencing chronic fatigue and depression. It continued for almost a year until I went back to work. I remained in that house and that room until 2016, when I learned that mold was a factor in my illness.

[POST EDIT: To clarify “within 2 weeks of moving back into that room” occurred 10 years after the roof and carpet replacement.]

I knew there was visible mold growth in that room - on 2 windows and the wood molding around 1 window, outside and inside the pockets of my canvas shoe rack, on shoe boxes and magazines under the bed, on the wall below a window to the bathroom where condensation ran down (this room was added on to the back of the house after it was built). The bathroom ceiling was loaded with mold. There was yellow mold/mildew on the backs of the curtains in the living room and on the wall below the windows. The bathroom floor had rotted and started caving in from a toilet leak for years before the floor was torn out with no precautions several years before I got really sick.

You can drive around town and see houses and buildings that you know are full of mold and look like they should be condemned and burned to the ground, and there are people living in them or have businesses in them. If I went in one of those places, I would probably die.

Yes. Some people are life-threateningly affected, while others appear to be unaffected. Some people are affected but don’t know it and are still functional. Different people are affected in different ways - some more cognitively, others with more pain and inflammation, others with severe fatigue, others with one or more unexplained infections or illnesses or diseases when they previously were healthy.

Somewhere on Shoemaker’s website, he told about a woman who lived in a house with a basement that had flooded for years. She had no problem with mold until she got an acute respiratory illness. It was that illness that triggered CIRS. Not only can one person in the house be sick while others are not, but that one person could be seemingly unaffected until a trigger event occurs, like an acute illness.

Post Edited (WalkingbyFaith) : 11/22/2021 7:23:51 AM (GMT-7)