Vasovagal response after my usual Bicillin shot - too many supplements - Rawls protocol - etc?

I've been taking Bicillin LA 1.2m injections every 5 days for almost 2 years now with Dr. K and it's been a miracle drug for the most part - the only symptoms that never really went fully away were autonomic neuropathy/dysautonomia related (POTS, exercise intolerance). I've been very high functioning for a while because of it. No side effects from the shot except some post injection pain depending on how while my wife administered it that day. I have no fear of needles or blood or anything of the sort that triggers these types of responses in some folks.

Yesterday, about 15-20 seconds after my injection, and 6 days since my last one (I decided to start to ween down the intervals this year), I started suffering what I believe was a vasovagal response. While sitting on the couch I felt like I was going to black out, got very shaky, got clammy, dizzy, all that stuff. I didn't lose consciousness but it took quite a while for everything to subside. I felt better laying down with my feet elevated. My blood sugars were normal, BP was jumping around, etc. I feel better today, not 100% but also a bit anxious because I don't want it to happen again after my next shot.

I informed my Doc today and am awaiting a call back hopefully. I went and got bloodwork this AM as well since I have a standing order.

The only thing that has changed in the past month is that I've added a few new suppIements and am wondering if this is a result of too many supplements or the new supplements. In the past month I started some of the Rawls recommendations for persisters - I added the liposomal oregano oil/clove/cinnamon with the brand he recommended and also in the past 2 weeks added houttonyia , Japanese Knotweed, and Sida Acuta; plus allimax garlic. My thinking is that since they were the only new substances added, and I haven't had trouble in 2 years, that they must be interacting with my system or just too many things for one body to handle. I also take: vitamin D (2000iu, 2 drops a day), Circumin (500mg 2x/day), NAC (900mg, 2x/day), Omega 3 (2x/day), CoQ10, probiotics. Other than those, I take my prescription clonazepam and OTC Zyrtec. Even just reading this now - that's a ton of stuff.

Anyone have any thoughts, similar experiences, etc? The vagus nerve is obviously huge for autonomic regulation and my lingering issues have been autonomic neuropathy related - I wonder if all the stuff I added was hitting something or it's just way to much stuff for 1 125lb person to take. I did feel kind of off at times since initiating the Rawls stuff prior to this episode. Either way I do not plan to touch those supplements again. I am going to try and refrain from all supplements except my probiotics over the weekend and hopefully get a call from my doc to discuss, as well as check my bloodwork to see if maybe I had an electrolyte imbalance (I normally run low on sodium at baseline, but i had 2 ER trips after taking rifampin for a while because it made me hyponatremic).

I just hope I can continue taking my Bicillin without issue. I don't think there's any specific information on interaction of all these supplements and medications but at some point it must get to be too much - kind of like how many of us end up switching off oral antibiotics after our bodies start reacting poorly.

I should add that I was doing IVIG for 11 months and felt alright (but not much different than without it) and then that stopped mid-November and the weening down never happened because I switched insurances and it's been in limbo since. However, I have been told that there is no withdrawal effect from this.

It almost certainly has something to do with the newly added supplements (liposomal oregano oil/clove/cinnamon plus the buhner herbs of hout/sida/JK). Either they didn’t mix well with my system, or they woke something up, and adding the injection was the last straw. Last time this sort of thing happened to me was when I was trying to resume Rifampin. Even at a tiny dose, after 2 or 3 days I woke up and almost blacked out. That was when I stopped oral abx for good. Its affecting the vagus nerve, that’s for sure.

Garzie said...
5 of the 6 things in the recently added list are powerful agents against persister forms of lyme and bartonella - and many people report v strong herx reactions to each of them even in isolation - 5 together - even in low doses could well drive some kind of reaction.

and since you report similar symptoms from treating bacterial infections previously - it occurs to me that this is a herx like reaction to these additions

getting strong herx from these things after adding them on top of a single agent regime is not at all unexpected in my view.

herx reactions seem highly variable and individual - for some its pain, for others its a flare in their other symptoms - for some others it upsets their auto-immunity - etc - so it could well cause the symptoms you describe.

there is a recent thread where the root cause of herx like reactions is discussed ( its not due to bacterial toxins / waste products )
It may simply be that the increased inflammation generated in the first instance, cascades down to a wide variety of effects in chronically ill patients - depending on their particular immunological, genetic and environmental factors

Thank you, this makes total sense. It definitely flared up my auto immunity, I’m just hoping I can continue taking the bicillin and not have this happen again. I mean, the bicillin is still in my body from the shot so I assume if I stirred up some persister Lyme perhaps it will zap them. I was just adding these agents in my quest to get rid of my last symptoms.

How much evidence is there for persister bart? I don’t believe I have any residual bart but you never know. The bicillin only works on Lyme and has kept almost all my symptoms at bay the past 2 years except the dysautonomia ones but even those have been manageable. When I had active bart I had severe psych symptoms (anxiety being the predominant one) and I have not had that in years while only using an agent (bicillin) that works on Lyme.

A lot of this jives with Dr K’s theory of using Bicillin as a mono therapy, with the idea being that since it is such a low dose of abx it is essentially a stealth attack. Lyme that has gone into persister state or other form resistant to abx will return to their growing phase and get zapped by the bicillin. I know he has had great success with use of Bicillin for his chronic Lyme patients, and I can attest that it has brought me back to about 90-95% of function, with only the dysautonomia/autonomic neuropathy remaining. I believe the Dr K also says that Bicillin may have immunomodulary benefits as well.

Most patients are given 1.2m dose weekly, but he says you can go up to as close as 4 days - I was doing every 5 because I was getting an end of dose effect/return of some symptoms after a while of Doing it weekly (returning to exercise was the main culprit, something about the stress of exercise brought the symptoms out). He won’t do the 2.4m due to it compromising the stealth theory.

I haven’t spoken to him yet since the incident, but during our last conversation I was basically trying to figure out how to get rid of the remaining symptoms, and since IVIG didn’t do it, we believe persister Lyme is the most likely culprit (other than, it may just be permanent damage) so he suggested oil of oregano in passing. I saw the Ross website and decided to add the liposomal oregano/clove/cinnamon combo, and then about 2-3 weeks after taking that once a day (I never took it twice a day like his website says) I added in the buhner herbs (also only once a day, before bed). To be honest I’ve taken those 3 tinctures for short durations throughout my journey but never noticed anything, but now perhaps in combo with the other items it either hit some persister Lyme (and the injection then triggered a massive herd) or it just sent my immune system into panic mode with all the substances being taken.

To be honest, i think if I did have persister bart, I would have much worse symptoms than just the dysautonomia, and even if not, only taking a mono therapy for Lyme would have allowed Bart to flourish over the last 2 years if nothing else was being taken to target it specifically. Which leads me to believe that it’s either persister Lyme or just an autoimmune or autoinflammatory issue. Hopefully that makes sense. I am just praying my next dose goes well (and that I will hear back from the doc).

Thank you Garzie, your responses have been very helpful.

I guess my question is, and I know there probably isn’t a definitive answer and will take trial and error, is if the response was truly in response to the presence of persister Lyme (or bart) or an autoimmune response/immune dysfunction.

Many of us reach a point where our bodies have an adverse reaction (non-herx) in the presence of specific substances (I think oral antibiotics being the most obvious one) either immediately or after prolonged use. For instance, Rifampin I was able to tolerate for about 8 weeks and it brought me from my worst point all the way back to 80% better. Any dose after that would make me feel extremely ill, and that’s when I transitioned to Bicillin. When I tried to restart oral abx a year later, even common abx I could take like candy before (doxy, Mino) would, as you mentioned, cumulatively build up and make me feel worse until I could no longer take them. Bactrim made me feel horrible within 2-3 days. Mepron the same thing. I don’t believe that each instance was a result of the presence of bart, babs, or Lyme. I think that in many cases they trigger an inflammatory response that will elicit symptoms ranging from mild to severe. Dr K’s theory is that dysfunctional immune systems will even spit out antibodies to previously eradicated infections - which can cause the person to have a false positive test (if testing for antibodies for Lyme, Bart, etc) and lead them to continue to chase an infection that may not be present when in fact it’s immune dysfunction.

Then again, it also could be persister Lyme hanging around my body and when I used these new herbs and supplements it slowly built up inflammation until it reached a trigger point. It’s all so frustrating.

Anyways, still waiting to hear back from my doc, and tomorrow will be day 7 without bicillin and I’m planning to have the injection after work. Hoping it will go smoothly. Haven’t taken any supplements or herbals all week.

Yesterday I Took my next Bicillin shot (5 days after the last one), so back to my usual 5 day interval, and already almost back to baseline. Truly incredibly how well it works. Just have to stay away from the Anti microbial stuff and let it do it’s thing.