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Huge disappointment with Buhner Protocol

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Posted 3/6/2022 11:04 PM (GMT 0)
Ive been on the full Buhner Protocol for almost 5 months now and ive seen almost no improvement. After hearing wonderful things about it, ive been disappointed. All of the 8-9 herbs im on and still nothing. What am I doing wrong? Im on antibiotics as well and only had lyme for 2 years before I started treatment. Im young and was active but im not making improvements as id like. My family is getting frustrated and im only 21 with pressures to pursue my career and start a family are on hold. It seems like its never going to get better. I have symptoms that are completely handicapping me from real life. Depersonalization, POTS, and hypoglycemia to name a few. Im so lost right now
Posted 3/6/2022 11:20 PM (GMT 0)
i had only mild improvement response to Buhner's lyme protocol - and alo only had mild improvement on triple abx combinations - but found later i have bartonella - i believe the bartonella with lyme is a hard combination to crack - especially the bartonella component.

the co-infection herbs are helping me - but it took me a long time to build up to required doses
over 1 year

i think the lyme herbs help to some extent but that bart is the bigger issue

will post my herbal protocol below

that said there is no one size fits all treatment for lyme - etc - each person has to find what works for them - and that may include many modalities all at once to swing the needle

ref the pressure from family - i would say your family needs to understand this aspect of lyme
if they think its a case of taking a+b+c antibiotic combo for 6 months and be done - they are mistaken
these boards would not exist if that was the case - but you do need them on your side as this disease is very tough to fight on your own.

The lyme herbs are mainly focussing on immune modulation and CNS inflammation - the co-infection herbs are more direct anti-microbial.
numbers to the right are dose in ml - 4x per day
Lyme herbs:
• Knotweed 1:5 70% - 6
• Chinese Skullcap root 1:4 50% - 2
• Uncaria Rhynchophylla 1:4 60% - 4
• Cordyceps Mycelium 1:4 50% - 3
• Salvia Miltiorrhiza root 1:4 60% - 3.8
• Uncaria tormentosa bark 1:4 60% - 3
• Kudzu root 1:5 50% - 3
• Licorice root 1:5 50% - 0.5
bartonella / coinfection herbs:
• Mahonia 1:5 70% tincture 2.1 (a berberine containing herb)
• Houttuynia 1:5 50% tincture 3.2
• Sida acuta 1:5 60% tincture 1.0
• Teasel root 1:3 45% tincture 0.8
• Alchornea leaf 1:5 50% tincture 1.0
• Cryptolepis root 1:5 60% tincture 1.0


if you suspect bart - that may need to be targeted directly - if you are not doing so already - to move forward

also worth asking yourself if there could be other blocking factors getting in the way of recovery
-thyroid issues
-gut issues
-hormonal issues
-sleep issues
-nutritional issues
-stress related issues

are you able to do any form of strength training/exercise - i have come to believe it is essential to recovery

hope there is something of use to you here
keep up the good fight !
Posted 3/6/2022 11:45 PM (GMT 0)
Hi there, bro123. I also didn't see much improvement with any antimicrobial treatment. I think that for many of us, antimicrobial treatment can have value, but it's just one piece of the puzzle. Tick-borne infections (especially combined with stress, poor diet, environmental toxicity, etc.) can trigger conditions and cause damage that remains even once infections themselves have been treated. Some types of damage, like neurological issues and dysbiosis, can take a while to improve. For me, what helped most was treating other conditions directly, especially dysautonomia and mast cell activation syndrome. I know it's exhausting to keep trying new things, but eventually you will find the key combination that moves you forward!
Posted 3/7/2022 3:20 PM (GMT 0)
How do you treat dysautonomia and mast cell? I have POTS but nothing seems to be improving
Posted 3/7/2022 3:51 PM (GMT 0)
I improved all at once when I started doing a few things at the same time, so scientifically I can't be sure which one made the most difference. I had POTS, near-constant brain fog, proprioception issues, muscle wasting and weakness, mal de debarquement syndrome (swaying sensation), mild gastroparesis, laryngopharangeal reflux, kidney pain, headaches, paresthesia, sore throats, peripheral neuropathy, severe menstrual problems, and had been bedridden (needed physical support to get to the bathroom) for five months.

The changes I made intended for POTS were: consuming lots of Himalayan salt to maintain blood volume, consuming the proper amount of water (not too much, which my POTS specialist said is a mistake most people make). I also continued previous practices intended for nervous system health during this time, including recumbent restorative yoga, self-administered acupressure, tapping, vagus nerve toning, and essential oils.

For MCAS, I began taking curcumin and quercetin, and eating a strict low-histamine diet, including low-histamine supplements.

For both POTS and MCAS, I did DNRS limbic system retraining.

Within a month, I had gone from about 20% functionality to 85%, reliably. I think the MCAS interventions and DNRS made the biggest difference. I'm not saying that this exact regimen will work for everyone, in fact I'm pretty sure everyone needs a customized blend of strategies. Just sharing what worked for me in case the ideas are helpful!
Posted 3/7/2022 6:49 PM (GMT 0)
How much do you take every day? Maybe your dosages are too low. For Bartonella, Sida Acuta started helping at 10 drops, even better at 20 drops. But only at 25 drops did I got real improvements. This was with the Woodland Essence tincture.

You could also have yeast overgrowth with can cause similar symptoms like Lyme. So the Lyme symptoms could be less but you don't feel it because the yeast is causing more problems.

Maybe this is helpful: https://www.treatlyme.net/guide/topics/cant-get-better-do-this
Posted 3/7/2022 8:09 PM (GMT 0)
Trying to do Buhner's complete protocol didn't work for me either. There are so many herbs with so many potential side effects or the ability to cause flares that I always felt like poop. It might be a better to start with less herbs and add in one at a time to see how you react. Maybe look into trying herbs that line up more with your symptoms. I would also agree with others who have said to look into other possible problems the infections can cause.

Tell your family to back off. Stress is a significant roadblock to getting well. This is a time for healing. All that societal expectation stuff, and your decisions on how much weight you give those ideas, are quite literally made up abstract ideas. That's not to say that those ideas can't be great when put into practice. But if you are unable to put them into practice due to illness then you will only be stressed by dwelling on that reality. It only has the power over you that you let it have. On the other hand, physical illness is as real as it gets. You can't wish it away. Any person who has ever been chronically ill can tell you how elevated stress will hold you back. Don't fret. You can do this. It might be time to look into an experienced doctor who can guide you. There is lots of confusing and conflicting information with this disease.
Posted 3/9/2022 2:53 AM (GMT 0)
one thing you should know is that andrographis/houttuynia are really the only directly anti-spirochete herbs in the protocol. everything else is just support for the immune/circulatory system. cryptolepsis/sida acuta is good for coninfections too. but i think andrographis/houttuynia is essential and buhner understates that fact.
Posted 3/9/2022 11:52 AM (GMT 0)

lastdaysofgravity said...
one thing you should know is that andrographis/houttuynia are really the only directly anti-spirochete herbs in the protocol. everything else is just support for the immune/circulatory system. cryptolepsis/sida acuta is good for coninfections too. but i think andrographis/houttuynia is essential and buhner understates that fact.

for info - Buhner later dropped his recommendation for Andrographis as a primary antispirochetal herb (still some helpful use as a CNS anti-inflammatory and chologogue) based on clinical experience - ref his 2nd edition of Healing Lyme.

Zhang et al - Johns Hopkins University - also recently sound significant anti spirochaetal action of Knotweed, Skullcap and Cryptolepis in in vitro experiments when compared to doxycycline and cephalosporine antibiotics - especially against stationary phase cultures of borrelia.
interestingly. in these experiments the alcohol % used in the preparation of the raw extract ( ie tincture) was found to be critical to effectiveness in these trials

so it seems like many herbs have more than one mode of action

Houttuynia is typically used more for Bartonella - very little is in the literature about its use against borrelia - but it may be that bartonella is an undiagnosed co-infection in my Lyme cases due to problems with the performance of diagnostic tests for bartonella - and as such it may have effectiveness through that route.

Buhner appears to have adopted his recommendation for its use in bartonella infections from Dr Zhang (Dr. Qingcai Zhang - in New York - a different Dr Zhang than the Johns Hopkins researcher) who pioneered its use for bartonella.
Posted 3/9/2022 4:32 PM (GMT 0)

bro123 said...
Ive been on the full Buhner Protocol for almost 5 months now and ive seen almost no improvement. After hearing wonderful things about it, ive been disappointed. All of the 8-9 herbs im on and still nothing. What am I doing wrong? Im on antibiotics as well and only had lyme for 2 years before I started treatment. Im young and was active but im not making improvements as id like. My family is getting frustrated and im only 21 with pressures to pursue my career and start a family are on hold. It seems like its never going to get better. I have symptoms that are completely handicapping me from real life. Depersonalization, POTS, and hypoglycemia to name a few. Im so lost right now

5 months is a very short time, I herxed constantly for 1 year on herbs and it did not look like I was improving, but I was. Are you detoxing daily? Do you experience herxes? Do you keep a symptom log so you can see changes over time? Do you have methylation issues? Have you addressed stress, inflammation, trauma, diet, environment, gut health, your vagus nerve, your parasympathetic nervous system, and the air quality in your home? All things to consider.

Also, unless you had a known tick-bite and bullseye rash, it is possible you've had Lyme for more than 2 years. I assume you are treating co-infections as well.
Posted 3/10/2022 6:23 PM (GMT 0)
Hey bro123,

So I'm not able to tell much about your history from this post.. But a few thoughts.

1. Are you taking buhners protocol just for lyme? Or is there co-infection support in there as well. (testing is not adequate to rule out co inf).

Have you explored the possibility of mold in your environment? (can't skip over that)

From there I always feel the more comprehensive the protocol the better.. Something for all the b's, binders for a variety of toxins, cistus for anti viral, perhaps a parasite protocol.. etc.

Depending on how bad to cognitive aspect is and because I dealt with that heavy early on.. I've found ashwagandha to be a nice addition lately for a better feeling of overall wellness body/mind wise.
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