Restless!!

I hade to stop abx for bart 2 weeks ago due to high liver enzymes. I have since then increased Houttuynia quite a lot because bartonella flared. When I increased Houttuynia the flare settled but instead I started to get restless. I continued the dose and now I am superrestless!! Cannot sleep and hard to sitt still.

This morning I took less Houttuynia (6drops instead of 8) but it gave me strong restlessness. The restlessness settled att lunch when I took the next dose, 7 drops instead of 10. Also this time my restlessness has gotten terrible.

Now I am confused... This dose I am now taking of Houttuynia has earlier not been enough and Bart has flared... I don't want Bart to flare but I really cannot take more. I don't know why I get so strong herx on this dose and soon it is time for the third dose and I don't know if that is a good or bad idea to take.

How long time has it taken for your herx to settle after decreasing the antimicrobials?

This restlessness is terrible!

Garzie said...
are you sure the houttuynia is causing the restlessness?

i did not get any noticeable herx until i was taking around 200 drops of houttuynia tincture a day - even in the beginning when i was sensitive to all antimicrobials

i now take around 13ml per day ( 520 drops ) and it doesn't cause me restlessness

i know everyone is different - but could it be something else you are taking?
or just bartonella flaring - bart itself causes anxiety and restless feelings

by the way - Dr M the bart treatment specialist doc says most of his patients get raised liver enzymes during treatment but he has found it better to keep going ( presumably unless they get dangerously high) and it resolves as the infection load comes down - he thinks its caused by infected cells in the liver dying off - no lasting damage.

i had them too - but didnt know and stopped -

This started after I increased Houttuynia so I thought it was herx but of course Hard to know for sure. I have however gotten this restlessness as a herxreaction from earlier herbs too so I now I can get that reaction from herx... But also from the infections.

I wonder why some, like me, is very sensitive and react om the first drop herb and some tolerate more from beginning... I Always react om the first drop... This time I went from about 20 to 30 drops in 2 days so for me a big increase.

Yes I have heard about the liver enzymes increasing from Bart. Do you know the upper limit Dr M accepts? My llmd says he accepts up to around 4 times the upper referens and mine were above 😔. However I do think, as you say, it is bartherx that is causing it because also when starting Houttuynia I got increased liver enzymes on doses that now doesn't give me herx and doesn't affect the liver. And when having bartherx I also get some pain in the liver area. My dr says bart can cause vasculitis in the liver which can cause increased liver enzymes so maybe that is what I am feeling.

Did you take a break when having high liver enzymes? Do you remember how high they were?

mine were around 2x the upper limit of normal or a bit more i think and rising - and because i was self treating - decided i should not risk further increases or damage

i have read Dr H also feels up to 4x the upper limit can be tolerated short term - but more than 4x and it seems wise to me to stop or at least take a break

he also advises the use of glutathione, NAC and alpha lipoic acid to try to keep them under control and to allow abx treatment to continue

Garzie said...
mine were around 2x the upper limit of normal or a bit more i think and rising - and because i was self treating - decided i should not risk further increases or damage

i have read Dr H also feels up to 4x the upper limit can be tolerated short term - but more than 4x and it seems wise to me to stop or at least take a break

he also advises the use of glutathione, NAC and alpha lipoic acid to try to keep them under control and to allow abx treatment to continue

Do you still get high liver enzymes from bart treatment?

I have tried glutathione several times but I feel awful when taking it. Restless and anxious unfortunately. I don't know if that is me not tolerating it or if it is an initial reaction.

Girlie said...

MariaS74 said...

Girlie said...
I also have raised liver enzymes while on bart treatment.

My regular doc who knew nothing about Lyme (but all my blood work went to her ) said - after seeing my elevated liver enzymes - it wasn’t anything to worry about.
She said she has seen enzymes numbers tripled before in other (non Lyme) patients.

Mine always rise when I’m treating - and my dominant infection is bart.

Do your liver enzymes stop increasing at a high level so you can continue the treatment of bart?

So interesting that you aren't taking abx continuosly. Do you have herbs you take in between the periods with abx or is you completely without treatment? Does bart flare when not taking abx?


/////////////////////////////

While I’m “on” the abx and I do my labs - a couple weeks after I finish my meds and they are slightly over range.
I stopped getting my labs right after I finished my course of abx because they’d be high and then I’d have to do labs again.

Remember - I am not taking abx continually - I’m taking them one week per month.

Edit to add:
When I was taking Rifampin daily (previous Lyme doc) for Bart , my bilirubin was always high - higher than what I now have (not taking abx daily) and it stayed high throughout the treatment.

This thread is all jumbled - did I answer this?

“ Do your liver enzymes stop increasing at a high level so you can continue the treatment of bart?
So interesting that you aren't taking abx continuosly. Do you have herbs you take in between the periods with abx or is you completely without treatment? Does bart flare when not taking abx?“

I’m only taking antibiotics one week a month - and the liver enzymes are only slightly raised now.
I have the 3 weeks off as per the protocol and then I do continue and take them on the scheduled week.
Although I am now stretching my time off to let my immune system take over.
Not quitting cold turkey.


Re: herbs. Dr J had me taking Cryptolepis and Enula (and Artemisinin) but after many months I discontinued them.

MariaS74 said...

I wonder why some, like me, is very sensitive and react om the first drop herb and some tolerate more from beginning... I Always react om the first drop... This time I went from about 20 to 30 drops in 2 days so for me a big increase.

As for the sensitivity questions, this is actually quite common. As stated, everyone is different, but each of us will often have different sensitivity levels during treatments. Sometimes it's because the actual bacteria load is lower, and we don't need as much, sometimes it's because of ongoing herxing, and sometimes we are just that sensitive. Without doing all kinds of blood work, it would be difficult to tell what exactly is causing the increased sensitivity at any given point during treatments.

That's my official non-answer answer! LOL!

I've felt restless from borrelia herx. I assume that in addition to the dead bacteria, the live ones are blebbing and throwing off stuff which stresses my adrenals or detox. I've gotten this not just from herbs and abx, but also from Claritin (loratadine) which has an adverse effect on borrelia.

Bartonella herx mostly just made me feverish and sick to my stomach. I didn't tend to get the restlessness thing from bart.