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Posted 4/9/2022 8:53 PM (GMT 0)
Hi everyone, I was curious what others experiences were with hottyunia. My doctor started me on it to help with healing my gut due to yeast overgrowth. But I noticed right away it took away my OCD and improved my mood. It was crazy bc my OCD thoughts have been daily and very difficult to manage not to mention exhausting. I’m taking the liquid tincture right now. Just working up one drop at a time. But I wondered if anyone else had this experience. I believe in the past I’ve used it to treat bartonella which I’m assuming that might be what’s happening. If anyone has more knowledge on Hottyunia would be interested to hear.
Posted 4/10/2022 1:34 AM (GMT 0)
I think it’s a really good choice to treat Bartonella! I’m glad it’s helping you. Woodland Essence has a pretty affordable ti tincture.
Posted 4/10/2022 2:44 PM (GMT 0)
i use it for bartonella -
i have worked up to around 13ml per day ( approx 520 drops per day ) of 1:5 50% alcohol tincture - along with a bunch of other herbs - like sida acuta, cryptolepis, alcornea and teasel

Buhner recommends it and several LLMD's also suggest it for Bart. - there is at least a suggestion that it does something specific for bartonella infections -

Buhner describes is a pretty good broad spectrum antimicrobial with anti-bacterial, anti-fungal and anti-viral properties - i think it also has some anti-inflammatory effects too.

i believe its use for bartonella was originally developed by Dr Zhang ( a LLMD out of new york ) and others have followed on from there

overall i dont find it as strong per ml as some of the other strong antimicrobial herbs like sida acuta - at least when using the herx like reactions as my guide.
the herx from houttuynia does seem to last longer than the others for me thou - so perhaps that is a clue to it doing something good/different ...
Posted 4/10/2022 3:40 PM (GMT 0)
I took Houttuynia for a little less than two years. Personally, my experience was 3 main effects:

1. Reduction of bartonella inflammation/symptoms - from the first dose, Houttuynia seemed to reduce some of the ongoing inflammation and malaise from bartonella, independent of any anti-microbial effects.
2. Anti-microbial effects ("productive" herxing) - I did experience herxes followed by improvement so I think it was working against bartonella to some degree.
3. Side effects ("non-productive" herx-like symptoms) - I never got past a point where each dose of Houttynia caused herx-like symptoms that never got better, and in fact, got worse over time.

Unfortunately, #3 prevented me from ever taking it in a dose high enough likely to make a meaningful impact. Some on here (such as Traveler who recently has been posting again) had great results with Houttuynia, a lot of great info is available if you search older threads (some refer to it as HH).

Post Edited (1yrinVA) : 4/10/2022 9:45:26 AM (GMT-6)

Posted 4/10/2022 11:49 PM (GMT 0)
Houttuynia is high in oxalates. In high doses and over long periods of time it may (or may not) cause some issues with kidney stones as per:

Oxalate contents of commonly used Chinese medicinal herbs: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26591692/
Posted 4/11/2022 2:37 AM (GMT 0)
wladek83 - Thanks for sharing that link, that was super interesting to see. I did have some flank pain and suspect kidney issues for several months before giving up on Houttuynia but had blamed it on other herbs and never would have made that link.
Posted 4/11/2022 5:33 PM (GMT 0)
I suspected kidney issues in my case as well. At that time I was on japanese knotweed and high doses of houttuynia. Any time I've introduced black walnut tincture, I'd get flank pain. I thought it's black walnut that's killing my kidneys. Then I've stopped hout and reduced knotweed to just a few drops 2x per day and now any amount of black walnut feels fine. It could have been NAC too but I think I've pretty much pinpointed it to Hout.
Posted 4/12/2022 9:52 AM (GMT 0)
i have had flank pain or pain in the lower back / kidney area quite often when stepping up antimicrobial herbs

rather than getting worse - as it seems to subside after a week or so - depending on how much of the herbs i have taken - or how much i have stepped the dose up - bigger steps / higher doses and it lasts longer

to me this suggests its more of a herx type reaction than kidney damage - as that, if caused by herbs would tend to get worse the longer you took them - but actually now i take more than 10x what i started on and gave flank pain - and have none of that type pain anymore.

hard to know exactly the cause - about it does make you wonder about the Markov theory of CFS - when you have a fatiguing illness and antimicrobials cause pain in the kidney area.....
Posted 4/12/2022 12:28 PM (GMT 0)
I've heard some claims that when you step up antimicrobials it's the adrenals that actually cause the pain, not the kidneys themselves. Hard to verify that.

Then there are reports of people reporting their Lyme infected dogs die because of kidney failure despite treatment. Perhaps Lyme/Bart destroy those organs with long-term inflammation, just like they do with any other organ.
Posted 4/13/2022 2:18 PM (GMT 0)
Yes. Houttuynia has been a good herb for me. I do get OCD and other psych symptoms. Taking it with Chinese skullcap and kudzu root would likely be even better.
Posted 4/13/2022 5:22 PM (GMT 0)

WalkingbyFaith said...
Yes. Houttuynia has been a good herb for me. I do get OCD and other psych symptoms. Taking it with Chinese skullcap and kudzu root would likely be even better.


I've been taking it or 2.5 years straight alongside 20 other herbals and supplements - it didn't clear BLO. It somewhat helps to slow down progression of the infection but that's about it. Haven't heard of anyone of who put BLO into remission with Houttuynia.
Posted 4/13/2022 7:57 PM (GMT 0)
I believe Traveler used Houttuynia for Bartonella

(Maybe I’m wrong tho)
Posted 4/13/2022 8:34 PM (GMT 0)
I think her chronic tonic was way more than just Hout. IIRC it was cloves, oregano, neem and few other herbs. But these three are strong antimicrobials, especially oregano (it hits myco, bart, babs, bb). Hout might have been a faint addition to the whole mix smile
Posted 4/15/2022 4:26 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks everyone. Definitely some interesting take aways here. And had not heard about the kidney issues that is good to know. Id been on hottyunia for long periods of time in the past had a couple instances of severe pain one I was even thinking could have been kidney stones but never confirmed and the problem went away. Could have just been herx though it was I thought. I’ll keep an eye out for that. But sounds like it’s been helpful for a lot of you. That’s great and I’m hoping it will be helpful I’ll be adding other things in soon.

Does anyone think capsules are more effective than the tincture? I have both but I figured I would start with liquid so I can control the does better. But may switch to capsules after.
Posted 4/15/2022 4:46 PM (GMT 0)
Tinctures should be safer - in theory less oxalates. Didn't verify that in a lab myself though.
Posted 4/15/2022 4:57 PM (GMT 0)
Ingredients:
Organic ethyl alcohol, water, vegetable glycerine, red root, cats claw, teasel, japanese knotweed, eleuthero, echinacea, sweet annie, wild sarsaparilla, neem leaf, thyme, oregano.

Contraindicated with pharmaceutical blood thinners, MAO inhibitors, antipsychotics & many birth control products.

https://www.mistymeadows.org/online-store/chronic-tonic
Posted 4/15/2022 5:37 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
Ingredients:
Organic ethyl alcohol, water, vegetable glycerine, red root, cats claw, teasel, japanese knotweed, eleuthero, echinacea, sweet annie, wild sarsaparilla, neem leaf, thyme, oregano.

Contraindicated with pharmaceutical blood thinners, MAO inhibitors, antipsychotics & many birth control products.

https://www.mistymeadows.org/online-store/chronic-tonic

Wonder why those typical Buhner herbs would be contraindicated with MAOi. I take those with MB and don't experience any issues.
Posted 4/15/2022 6:13 PM (GMT 0)
Depends what "OCD thoughts" your used to having.

I googled them.

I dont have OCD but I can get "Rumination" which can be from OCD or in my case, anxiety.

Anxiety can get way out of control from these infections, even gut infections (a direct path to the brain).

So using Houtt can indirectly lower anxiety in some people with certain infections / over growths.

In my case Houtt hit me hard at the one week time frame, and was not so soothing as you describe though.
Posted 4/15/2022 7:28 PM (GMT 0)
i have no problems combining the below with MB either

cats claw, teasel, japanese knotweed, eleuthero,

i think there may be a bit of what Buhner calls "phytosteria" going on
Posted 4/15/2022 8:34 PM (GMT 0)
There is no straight answer as to how Houttuynia impacts the kidney, as least what I have tried to find over the years. With my kidney function at about 50% - 55% for the last-nine years, I'm careful on what I treat with.

There is so much conflicting information about how it affects the kidneys. For instance, in the article in the link below (sorry, I'm still pathetic at posting a live link), it mentions how Houttuynia lowers BUN (which is good to have lower) and raised the creatinine clearance in diabetic mice (which is also good). But it doesn't mention other types of situations that can cause kidney problems, such as high blood pressure, polycystic kidney disease or others).

Most studies show positive results for use with kidney problems, but there is no definitive answer I could find. I've used Houttuynia and have just started back with no worsening of filtration rate of kidneys. Stones may be another story, though.

I'm amazed, Garzie, at your 500+ number of drops.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › articles › PMC3834437
Posted 4/15/2022 8:44 PM (GMT 0)

running wild said...
There is no straight answer as to how Houttuynia impacts the kidney, as least what I have tried to find over the years. With my kidney function at about 50% - 55% for the last-nine years, I'm careful on what I treat with.

Running wild - did you try urtica dioica tincture recommended by Julie McIntyre / Stephen Buhner?

"a note on the kidneys: during active infection, to protect the kidneys, regular consumption of a
strong nettle (Urtica dioica) infusion along with a tincture of nettle seed is highly recommended. (Note: for years I was curmudgeonly in response to (i.e., highly suspicious of) occasional claims I heard about nettles being able to heal kidney damage. However, my partner Julie McIntyre has been suggesting it in practice for some time and has reported significant healing of damaged kidneys, in one instance so much so that dialysis was avoided. I rather shame-facedly stand corrected.)
To make: Add 1-2 ounces of dried nettle leaf to a quart mason jar. Add hot water, let steep overnight, strain and drink throughout the next day. (Some people think the already infused herb can be used again at least one more time.) Do this every day. As well, take 1/4 tsp nettle seed tincture 3x daily, every day"
Posted 4/16/2022 2:55 PM (GMT 0)

running wild said...

I'm amazed, Garzie, at your 500+ number of drops.

i built up over time and can detect no adverse effect at all at this dose
it corresponds to around the max long term dose from Buhner's writings

i think a lot of people with lyme and co are very sensitive to herbs initially and can get strong reactions from a few drops a day - houttuynia was not the strongest herb i have tried in this regard -

the dose i needed to cause herx like feelings was 2-3x higher than the strongest antimicrobials ( sida acuta, teasel etc ) that i have tried - it did seem to last longer though

i think the fact that there are so many accounts of people having strong reactions to a few drops of this of that tincture creates the impression that the appropriate doses must be low - but i think its best to use the respected herbalists for guidance on effective doses or we might otherwise take far too little, feel like it causes a bit of herx but no improvement - and never really get the expected benefit.
Posted 4/17/2022 10:36 PM (GMT 0)
wladek83 - Your post concerning Julie McIntyre is a good one and is also a good example of the conflicting information on herb usage. That's not doubting what you posted, but leads back to the point of which side is right. One of the first herbs I saw that was considered bad for the kidneys is stinging nettle. It is listed as one of the herbs not to use by the National Kidney Foundation because of its potassium content. Other sites offer the same advice. But there are others that stress it as a kidney healer, as you have pointed out.

Garzie - I laughed about your number of drops because I have struggled to get up to 7-8 drops. How much do you detox? Maybe that is an aspect that people need to stress with raising Houttuynia load?
Posted 4/18/2022 3:14 PM (GMT 0)
lol - yeah - i had to start a lot lot lower than this level though - i just checked my records

i started at 10 drops 4x a day - and could feel that

and then gradually worked up to the current dose over around 18months - trying not to increase more than 25% of existing dose in any one step - or i would have herx like symptoms that seemed to last a long time before settling down.

i have not really found any particular detox strategies to help me very much

i do try to eat as well as i possibly can - and am sticking to the wholefoods ketogenic diet which defo helps me
i do take quite a few supplements to (try to)help my glutathione production as it was on the floor acc to OAT tests ( ALA, NAC etc )
i do exercise - brisk walking every day that helps me sweat - and a 45minute workout now each 3rd day
i do hot baths 2x per week - with Epsom salts and exfoliating

i haven't really found much else that helps with herx symptoms - the trick for me has been to only step up treatments v slowly - at a rate my body can handle - rather than get big herxes as they would typically set me back

so far so good ....
Posted 4/18/2022 7:42 PM (GMT 0)

running wild said...
wladek83 - Your post concerning Julie McIntyre is a good one and is also a good example of the conflicting information on herb usage. That's not doubting what you posted, but leads back to the point of which side is right. One of the first herbs I saw that was considered bad for the kidneys is stinging nettle. It is listed as one of the herbs not to use by the National Kidney Foundation because of its potassium content. Other sites offer the same advice. But there are others that stress it as a kidney healer, as you have pointed out.

I hear you. It's up to each individual to decide what works best for them. I'd have more trust in what Buhner says than what any National* says. We all know what CDC advises for Lyme treatment, "there's no Lyme post 3-4 weeks of Doxycyline, it's PTLD", "ketosis is harmful" etc. I remember when I was on sort of keto "diet" (I just reduced carbs), got some blood work done and my doc said - oh, there are some ketones in your blood, it's bad for your body, we gotta increase carbs! When I tried to buy Methylene Blue in the pharmacy they gave me a lecture on how toxic it is and why nobody should take it, at the same time having no issues selling Gentamycin, Daraprim, statins, viagra etc.

Once again, it's just my personal opinion, not an advice. Consult with your MD ;)
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