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Baby due next month, looking for opinions

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Lyme Disease
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Posted 7/13/2022 11:23 PM (GMT 0)
My wife and I are expecting our first child together next month and I'm a little torn on if I should test the baby or not. When trying to conceive, I was on an abx protocol to lower possible risk of transmission. I did detail testing through igenex before we started trying and babesia and lyme both came back negative but bartonella came back positive. After receiving the positive bartonella results I treated for a few months then we started trying. My wife has never shown any symptoms and her pregnancy has gone pretty well overall. I had a consultation with Dr. J office before we started trying and the NP i talked to basically said most would not test in a situation like this. I'm a little torn on if I should get the igenex blood cord test for the baby or not to as I feel like it would create a lot of stress for my wife and she's already pretty stressful person. Basically I'm afraid if we test it could do more harm than good. God forbid it was positive that would mean she would also have a tick born illness and I'm not sure she could handle it. Even though she's never had any symptoms, phycology I think she could really be negatively affected.

Basically just looking for people's opinion that have possibly been in a similar situation as I'm unsure of what the right decision is.

Side note: I got bit July 2017 and started treating October 2017 with abx for a year then supplements then abx on and off. My wife happened to get off birth control right when I got bit so we happened to be using protection and used protection from July2017 until we started trying for a kid. We tried for 4 cycles(6ish times each month) and I was on abx my doctor prescribed to lower chance of passing anything. She is 33 weeks and everything in terms of baby tests/measurements have come out normal.

Any advice/knowledge on a similar situation is much appreciated.
Posted 7/14/2022 6:27 AM (GMT 0)
Mademywifeapromise,

I have no insight to share. I just wanted to say, “Congratulations!!!!”🎉
Posted 7/14/2022 7:23 AM (GMT 0)
i was not treating during bebe mommas pregnancy, shes nine now and only showing bart symptoms ...

my sister has two strains of borrelia and 3 kids with only youngest two showing symptoms. the youngest is on the spectrum.

was mom ever symptomatic? if no id wait and see how development goes . ...
Posted 7/14/2022 12:26 PM (GMT 0)
i've not been in this situation - and i sympathise

the general principle usually used in assessing the usefulness of testing is:
"what would i do differently than i am already doing - with a positive ( or negative) test result ?"

from the account you gave - i would guess that you are unlikely to do anything differently unless the child starts to show overt symptoms.

if that's the case - perhaps a simple monitoring of the child and being prepared to act promptly if needed, would be the most appropriate course of action?

sometimes having a plan of action can reduce the stress of unwelcome events that are outside our control eg
--being aware of the signs of Tick borne infections in infants/ children
--being aware of the tests available - their usefulness in children - and how to access them
--having a list of possible LLMD's you could use - eg from recommendations - if that were to happen


overall i would say that the picture that is emerging is that exposure to tick borne infections are much more common than has been thought to date - but that exposure does not equal - symptoms / sickness.

other factors seem to play a large tole in who becomes ill and who does not
general health - seems to play a large part in this - presumably because it equates to a healthy immune system - which can keep infections from taking hold - as is its main function.

lifestyle factors such as diet, sleep, stress management and exercise play a huge role in this and - given the probable exposure - but also because following these principles leads to a happier, healthier more fruitful life for anyone who does so - i think i would be promoting these principles in the child's life from an early age, as its likely to serve them well whatever challenges they may face in life.

congratulations and good luck to all of you
Posted 7/14/2022 1:03 PM (GMT 0)
I personally would focus my energy on the pregnancy and enjoying your new baby.

The odds of your child having issues are quite remote, imho:

1.) There really is no credible information on lyme being passed by sexual transmission. We can rarely find it in the blood or bodily fluids with the best technology that exists on earth, so to think there is enough of it in the semen to cause infection doesnt really make sense, and even if it does happen, is likely to be very improbable.
2.) Even if sexual transmission were extremely common, your partner is showing no symptoms. Odds are her body would have fought off the few spirochetes that made it
3.) Assuming your partner did get passed lyme, she'd need to pass it to child. While this is a possibility based on current research, and we dont know the odds of it happening, it's not a given, and my guess is the odds would be quite low
4.) Even if the child is passed lyme spirochetes, many/most people do not get sick from it. It depends as much on their genetics as does exposure, and the fact that your partner is not sick bodes well

So the number of low probability things that would need to happen in a row for this to become a problem means that the risk of this being an issue is not something you should be concerned with in the grand scheme of things

In addition, the testing is not accurate. All it tells you is if your body is making antibodies to the proteins tested. These antibodies could indicate past infection, or be cross-reacting with other antibodies.

There's nothing you can do w/ this information other than make yourself nervous for no reason. I'm quite certain no dr would prescribe abx and you would not want to be pumping your child full of abx.

The odds of this being an issue are miniscule imho. And congratulations on the baby!!!
Posted 7/14/2022 1:31 PM (GMT 0)

dcd2103 said...

1.) There really is no credible information on lyme being passed by sexual transmission. We can rarely find it in the blood or bodily fluids with the best technology that exists on earth, so to think there is enough of it in the semen to cause infection doesnt really make sense, and even if it does happen, is likely to be very improbable.

not wishing to argue - but i'm not sure this is fair representation of what is known so far dcd - but there is some nuance involved

while its true that borrelia burgdorferi ( the spirochete that causes Lyme disease) are rarely found in the blood in any numbers, borrelia burgdorferi spirochetes are found in both the male ejaculate and in the female vaginal secretions pretty easily. I think there are a few studies on that.

quote from the 1st citation on MR's page on this
"Control subjects who were asymptomatic and seronegative for Bb had no detectable spirochetes in genital secretions by PCR analysis. In contrast, spirochetes were observed in cultures of genital secretions from 11 of 13 subjects diagnosed with Lyme disease, and motile spirochetes were detected in genital culture concentrates from 12 of 13 Lyme disease patients using light and darkfield microscopy."

there are also some limited scientific studies on sexual transmission in humans - and while not entirely conclusive either way - the weight of evidence appears to be more towards sexual transmission than against. for example if in female lyme patients, spirochetes can get from tissues into the vaginal fluid - then why could spirochetes not move the other way - from male ejaculate into vaginal fluid and into vaginal tissues and thereby infect the patient?

Dr MR has a page that does a reasonable job of presenting what we know in a fairly unbiased way
https://www.treatlyme.net/guide/can-lyme-be-sexually-transmitted-yes

the actual rate of transmission is unknown - largely because the studies simply have not been done - except for the small scale one mentioned in MR's page.
this is mainly for reasons of cost and lack of profit - but lack of evidence, because no one has found a way to profit from it yet, is not evidence of lack of transmission.

he also takes the view that transmission does not equal illness - and its more dependent on the health of the recipients immune system.

that's where i would focus

Post Edited (Garzie) : 7/14/2022 6:34:28 AM (GMT-7)

Posted 7/14/2022 4:16 PM (GMT 0)
I'm in the camp of not worrying about this right now, but I empathize with others' points of view. Your baby coming in contact with a tick-borne infection is not the same things as your baby being chronically ill, possibly ever, so for now I would not be concerned. If you are worried, then do what you'd normally do anyway for your child as they grow: good nutrition, attention to stress levels and microbiome, exercise, minimal toxicity exposure, etc.

For now, focus on yourself and your partner getting all the rest possible. Accept lots of help of any kind when the baby comes, and arrange for it now. Maybe you'll have one of those rare babies that sleeps well and is chill while awake, but even people without chronic illnesses feel can be worn down by the early months (or years) of parenting. Even if you have read all the books and are confident that you will be A+ parents, it can still be very hard on a body that's already stressed. I'm not trying to scare you, just saying this is a marathon, and do not push yourself if you can avoid it. Prioritize your health and your partner's health so you can be there for your baby and be the kind of parents you want to be!

This is my lens, as a person who wore myself down terribly with my intense baby, and genuinely believe I would not be chronically ill now, had I had enough help to take better care of myself in those early years.
Posted 7/14/2022 4:40 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you all for input.

When I had a consultation with one of the NP at Dr. J she told me that if I did test the baby and it came back positive I could treat the baby for 6 months with abx as treatment at this point is much more effective because a baby is like a "sponge" at that point. Not really sure what that means but that would be the only logic for testing.
Posted 7/14/2022 8:08 PM (GMT 0)
I know you're thinking of your child's long-term health when you're considering putting them on long-term antibiotics right away, but to me your baby's long-term health is the reason not to do that, especially for a healthy baby with a healthy mother. This is my midwifery training talking. (Just like most doctors don't know about tick-borne illness treatment, most doctors don't know about the systems of newborns - which are very different from adults'!) I encourage you to question this idea, even for a baby who tests positive for antibodies to tick-borne illness. Antibodies do not equal chronic illness, after all, since many people who have recovered from active infection will test positive for antibodies for life.

A baby is developing their immune system and microbiome, and once that process is interrupted and thrown off balance, it's difficult to correct. Antibodies and probiotics from breastfeeding, beneficial bacteria and yeasts from a vaginal delivery, microbes from skin-to-skin contact, and so much else is developed in those early months. I think your child's ability to fight off tick-borne disease and anything else they contract in life will be much greater if their system is allowed to develop in a healthy way early on.
Posted 7/18/2022 7:34 PM (GMT 0)
Thank you all for the input. Always good to get as much information as possible, especially from people that have lived/understand it. Obviously there is no clear answer but I was leaning toward not testing before posting and this has helped push me in that direction.

thank you
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