HealingWell
Search Close Search
☰

What to do before test to get more accurate results?

Support Forums
>
Lyme Disease
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply
❬ ❬ Previous Thread |Next Thread ❭ ❭
Posted 8/20/2022 3:44 PM (GMT 0)
My test results keep going back and forth between posititve and negative and i'm not sure why, there is also a lot of conflicting information like for example taking antibiotics lowers the immune system so logically you would take a break before doing a test but then at the same time the antibiotics killing the bacteria and the immune system seeing the remains of the bacteria can actually make them aware of their presence which would make them produce antibodies and the results being positive.

This happened to me in the very beginning when i was trying to get my first positive result, it kept being either borderline/weak or negative until i treated enough time with antibiotics and after that i started getting positive results.

But now i'm treating on and off, taking breaks every now and then and the test results are very inconsistent.

It would be nice to have a clear guideline on exactly what to do before a test, how much time before, antibiotics or not, how to boost immune function, other stuff that can help getting a more accurate results.

I'm pretty sure this issue with tests is mostly due to the bacteria being able to hide from the immune system (by changing it's outer surface protein) and eventually it will stop producing antibodies to it, but maybe there's other factors like the immune system itself being weakened or not as responsive.

If you know anything that can help getting more accurate results or that you personnaly do before a test and gets more accurate results would be great to know.
Posted 8/20/2022 4:09 PM (GMT 0)

GeorgeBod said...
My test results keep going back and forth between posititve and negative and i'm not sure why, there is also a lot of conflicting information like for example taking antibiotics lowers the immune system so logically you would take a break before doing a test but then at the same time the antibiotics killing the bacteria and the immune system seeing the remains of the bacteria can actually make them aware of their presence which would make them produce antibodies and the results being positive.

This happened to me in the very beginning when i was trying to get my first positive result, it kept being either borderline/weak or negative until i treated enough time with antibiotics and after that i started getting positive results.

But now i'm treating on and off, taking breaks every now and then and the test results are very inconsistent.

It would be nice to have a clear guideline on exactly what to do before a test, how much time before, antibiotics or not, how to boost immune function, other stuff that can help getting a more accurate results.

I'm pretty sure this issue with tests is mostly due to the bacteria being able to hide from the immune system (by changing it's outer surface protein) and eventually it will stop producing antibodies to it, but maybe there's other factors like the immune system itself being weakened or not as responsive.

If you know anything that can help getting more accurate results or that you personnaly do before a test and gets more accurate results would be great to know.

There aren’t really good tests to determine if you don’t have active infection anymore.

If you get a positive test result - then likely you need to continue treatment.
But a negative test result does not mean you’re done.
False negatives aplenty
Posted 8/20/2022 4:10 PM (GMT 0)
Is there a reason you are continuing to test even after getting positive results? Have you tried tests that do not rely on antibodies?

Once you have a positive test result, there generally is no need to keep testing. Many people make antibodies for the rest of their lives once they have been infected, even once the infections are under control. A negative test result is not a way to measure treatment progress, and results that vary from test to test are not uncommon for a chronic infection that is characterized by immune dysfunction. This is why tick-borne diseases are considered clinical diagnoses, meaning they are diagnosed based on signs and symptoms, with tests results being just one factor LLMDs use. Unfortunately there's a lot of misunderstanding about this.

A negative antibody test result (especially when you already know you have an infection) could mean that your immune system is weakened or dysfunctional and therefore unable to produce antibodies. I didn't test positive for Borrelia bergdorferi on an antibody test until I was doing better and my immune system was able to start making antibodies. (I had tested positive earlier on a PCR test, which does not look for antibodies.) A negative test also could mean that the lab doing the testing is not a reputable lab for tick-borne disease testing.
Posted 8/20/2022 4:50 PM (GMT 0)
There is no LLMD's in my country and the doctors there will only accept their own test results on top of that they only test for one strain when there are at least three known infectious strains in europe, which is probably borderline criminal, i cant imagine the number of patients that are infected but dont get any diagnosis or treatment because they dont have "the right strain", i sent some documentation about the different strains, syptoms etc to my doctor and just got straight up ignored, didnt expect anything else tbh.

Anyway i can go to one of the countries next to me and they will test for the others strains but their test is not as good as the ones from private lab, i keep testing so that their test might become positive and i can get an official diagnosis from that country which i could then eventually show to the doctor in my country and get treatment.

It is not an emergency because i'm used to use other means to get necessary treatments, antibiotics etc, but it would still get me access to to other treatments that i cant do by myself or much harder or too expensive also would be nice to have prescription for antibiotics instead of having it out of pocket.

But i'm guessing that to have one of the mainstream tests be positive especially after years of infection, the immune system as to be on top conditions and all that is needed to be done as to be done, hence why i want to know of different methods so that even a basic test would pick up on it.
Posted 8/20/2022 8:27 PM (GMT 0)
i understand what you are trying to achieve - but i do not think the knowledge exists today to know for certain what would cause your test to be positive

it seems highly variable in individual to individual who produces which antibodies

there is evidence that lyme actually actively damages the hosts ability to manufacture expected anti-Lyme antibodies - so that's probably driving that outcome

there are studies showing that many antibiotics supress the number of white blood cells - neutrophils mainly i think - but also some are anti-inflammatory in other ways - and thsi might further interfere with the hosts ability to make expected antibodies during abx therapy or shortly afterward

on the other hand there are numerous reports of patients being sero negative until part way through treatment and then converting to seropositive - but to my knowledge no-one knows exactly why this is happening -perhaps because their immune system has recovered some more normal function after treatment
-perhaps because the antibiotics killed a large number of spirochetes and exposed them to the immune system which then mounts a stronger response

perhaps herbs that kill or help your body to kill more spirochetes could help in a similar way - possibly anti-biofilm agents like xylitol and lumbrokinase could also expose more bacteria from their biofilm colonies and in that way generate more antibodies - assuming the body is capable of making them - and assuming they are the antibodies that the test is looking for ( i also did a deep dive and got a positive test from Armin labs for B. Garinii - when all UK tests were negative - and after much research found that the UK tests that are based on the B. Burgdorferi B31 strain are likely to be negative in patients with B. Garinii infection )

i suspect it will be trial and error

is a test for multiple European species from Armin Labs of use to you

if you did get a positive results - do you think the local doctors will actually treat you appropriately - if they follow the UK model - they may give you 3-4 weeks of doxy and call that treatment complete - and if you have symptoms simply call that post lyme disease syndrome/ cfs/fibromyalgia/ post viral fatigue etc etc
Posted 8/21/2022 6:05 PM (GMT 0)
Yeah you're probably right there are so many variables to take into account that unless a major study is done with hundreds of patients that take into account every one of these and test different methods then there's no way to really tell what works, all you can do is your best and hope for the best.

Yes i did tests at armin labs it's where i got my first weak/borderline result which eventually turned positive after treatment but regular doctors dont take these results into account, so it's more for personnal knowledge.

For some reason PCR tests seem unreliable too i got a negative results from armin but when i draw my blood mix with anticoagulant, centrifuge it and put the bacteria rich part of the plasma under the microscope i can clearly see it or at least what seems to be it (same shape, same shaky/vibrating movement that can be seen here https://youtu.be/AiwRTu9zg5k?t=551 )

So i really dont know why it came back negative, maybe because the bacteria isnt really present in the blood after a certain point and only centrifuging a larger quantity of blood allows you to have a few ones in the sample or maybe the test is not sensitive enough or some other reason idk.

If they where reliable PCR tests could actually be good since they dont rely on the immune system and everything that may affect it and make the results innacurate, maybe there is a method to make sure bacteria are in the blood when drawing a sample but never heard about it.
Posted 8/22/2022 12:40 PM (GMT 0)
the explanation is that the thread like object in that youtube clip is just an artefact moving due to Brownian motion - not a live spirochete

here is a clip of an actual live spirochete - note its totally different motion as it swims with a distinctive rapid rotating corkscrew action.
{url]https://youtube.com/watch?v=ROXvcJeZ3pQ

these artefacts are common in human blood - especially after anticlotting agents have been used
there is a huge amount of such erroneous youtube videos out there - so much so that it makes finding clips of actual spirochetes hard to find - and the posters of the erroneous ones often vehemently believe they are looking at spirochetes, no matter what evidence to the contrary exists - so it becomes hotly contested pretty quickly.

there are papers using multiple technologies to investigate these thread like artefacts and finding them to be of human cellular not pathogen origin


the problem with PCR for Lyme is that there are remarkable few spirochetes in most chronically infected persons blood - the organism prefers to live in and even move through tissue - as that is what it is adapted for - PCR of blood of persons confirmed to be infected by other means - is found to be positive only around 50% of cases in comparative studies.

PCR for Lyme works much better for tissue samples - eg skin, joint fluid, other infected tissue - but is rarely used for that due to the comparative difficulty in obtaining such samples,
Posted 8/23/2022 10:14 AM (GMT 0)
Very confusing when half the videos present this as being the bacteria and even more when some of them have names of doctors that can be looked up and seem to have good credentials, but wouldnt be the first time the medical field has wrong information.

Anyway i looked up some of my own videos and in this one it looks like it could be the bacteria, unfortunately the sample is contaminated with some other rod-shaped bacteria (before i knew how to properly sterilise tubes and stuff) and also the specimen is not moving (on it's own) most likely dead so it makes identifying it harder, but the shape seems to check out, do you think this could be it? https://youtu.be/OOJYQZbsyQo

Also i found out that apparently teasel root and heat might make it so the bacteria comes out of it's regular living/hiding place and go in the bloodstream "The spirochetes hate heat, and both the tincture and the heat chase them out of hiding to where antibiotics can reach them" https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/health/ticks/lyme-disease-symptoms-and-treatment-for-dogs/

So maybe it could be a valid method to take teasel and do a sauna or hot bath before drawing the blood to increase the number of bacteria in the sample and have a better success rate of PCR tests.

I might try this and put the sample under the microscope to see if there is an increase number of the bacteria.
Posted 8/23/2022 12:12 PM (GMT 0)

GeorgeBod said...


Anyway i looked up some of my own videos and in this one it looks like it could be the bacteria, unfortunately the sample is contaminated with some other rod-shaped bacteria (before i knew how to properly sterilise tubes and stuff) and also the specimen is not moving (on it's own) most likely dead so it makes identifying it harder, but the shape seems to check out, do you think this could be it? https://youtu.be/OOJYQZbsyQo

.

the spiral object clearly present at around 3.00 in that clip is much more compelling as a spirochete
unfortunately it is not moving - so that strong clue as to its identity cannot be evaluated - but i would still say its more likely to be a spirochete than not.

however, that is not really the end of the story as far as using it as evidence of lyme infection.
There is so much contamination of other bacteria in that sample that it would be hard to conclude with a high degree of confidence that it has come from the blood of the patient - and is not from some other source - as the presence of so many other bacteria strongly suggest contamination of the sample - as you indicate.
And Lyme is not the only spirochete in the wild
there are many species in soil, water sources, dental plaque and these may contaminate things that come into contact with those sources - eg fingers.
Posted 8/23/2022 12:34 PM (GMT 0)

GeorgeBod said...



Also i found out that apparently teasel root and heat might make it so the bacteria comes out of it's regular living/hiding place and go in the bloodstream "The spirochetes hate heat, and both the tincture and the heat chase them out of hiding to where antibiotics can reach them" https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/health/ticks/lyme-disease-symptoms-and-treatment-for-dogs/

So maybe it could be a valid method to take teasel and do a sauna or hot bath before drawing the blood to increase the number of bacteria in the sample and have a better success rate of PCR tests.

I might try this and put the sample under the microscope to see if there is an increase number of the bacteria.

there is good scientific evidence to support that heat kills spirochetes - including syphilis and lyme
- there are studies of the healt tolerance of lyme disease - strong inhibition occurs i think above 41 deg C and it being killed outright above 42 deg C ( pulling numbers from memory - but i have threads on here with more details and sources)
- syphilis was also cured in the pre-antibiotic era by deliberately infecting patients with malaria - and the ensuing very high fevers cured the patients of syphilis
-there are also clinics in Mexico and Germany that treat lyme with antibiotics and hyperthermia combined - which seems effective for some patients
- i am not sure there is equally strong evidence that heat causes the bacteria to come out of the tissues into the blood (rather than just interfering with their ability to survive and multiply) - that could well be just another lyme myth - or perhaps heat could help break up biofilms - see below.

unfortunately there is a great deal of such myths, or lets perhaps better characterise them as unproven theories, or outdated theories that have since proven to be false, in circulation in the Lyme world.

this is mainly a consequence of the lack of real knowledge in this recently discovered organism - and the resulting vacuum of knowledge causes many such theories to be generated to fill the void.
then once something enters the public consciousness - it becomes hard to dislodge - whether is true or not.

another example in the dog article - is that lyme takes 24 to 48hrs to be transmitted from a tick to dog ( or human) this myth existed for decades - but newer research shows that it can be transmitted in less than 1hrs. ( it seems to come down to the behaviour of the tick - when it took its last meal etc etc) there are even a few documented cases of bulls eye rash and confirmed lyme disease from horse fly bites ( which last only seconds)

as far as i have been able to ascertain - the ability of teasel root to "bring spirochetes out into the blood" is in the same category.
i have seen this stated as fact or at least opinion by many herbalists - but i have not seen any scientific evidence that this is in fact the case - so i think it best characterised as the opinion of some herbalists. that is not to sat teasel may not be helpful in lyme disease - i take it myself.

one think which might be worth experimenting with is some form of biofilm disrupting agent that is expected to work on lyme biofilms - as most lyme spirochetes in the bodies of chronic patients seem to be ( according to autopsy reports on their organs) located in microcolonies of biofilm producing spirochetes distributed through their tissues.

again i have not seen any direct scientific evidence that this would be more likely to cause a positive serological test result - but logically it might cause more free swimming spirochetes to break off the microcolonies and - since these have to go somewhere - it might increase the likelihood to find some in the blood.

so i would put that in the category of "worth a try"
✚ New Topic ✚ Reply