Cats Claw

Love this topic! I wish I had good resources to point you toward on the matter of immune system support in conjunction with autoimmunity, but sadly I have not found anything consistent online or from my providers. I have been told to opt for immune system modulators as opposed to immune system stimulators, but as previous posters noted, many herbs are classified as both depending on the information source. It's so frustrating! I would think that functional medicine doctors at least would have a handle on this by now, considering the proliferation of autoimmune conditions.

Looking forward to reading more about what others have figured out!

Ah yes the molecular mimicry route is one that has actually been proven. Saw a neurologist at Yale, very smart guy, who explained a lot of it to me.

Thanks for the tips on Salvia Miltohizia!!! Thats a great call, going to buy some.

Ah awesome thanks!

its an old post -

but we struggle with the concept "immuno-stimulatory - or - immune suppressive" question here quite a bit - so i thought i would write a few words, from my years of reading around the topic in case its of help

the underlying assumption to the concept of immune stimulating or immune calming - is that the immune system is a single variable - like the temperature of a room - or the speed of your car - or for example the loudness of your hi-fi - where you have one big knob you turn up or down to make it louder or quieter - analogous to making the immune system more active or less active

unfortunately, this is a really gross over simplification of what the immune system is actually like - perpetuated by poor science articles all over the internet and in print - and that's why, as soon as you start trying to apply it - as we have here - in terms of "does this herb turn it up or turn it down" - the analogy breaks down.

this is because the immune system is in reality an extremely complex and sophisticated system with not one "volume knob" - but maybe 20 different cell types, 30 signalling molecules, multiple pathways - so maybe 50 or 100 separate volume knobs that can all be turned up or down - more or less independently.
either by the body deliberately to fight disease - or by microbes trying to improve their survival
or by things that we ingest - like herbs, foods toxins, our environment etc
and in reality many of these elements and processes also interact with each other in complex networks - where one factor tends to drive some neighbouring factors up and other factors down.

so the concept of immune modulation is more appropriate - and here this is analogous to some of these volume knobs getting turned up and some getting turned down, in recognisable patterns, by any particular herb or environmental factor.

what the herbalists like Buhner (RIP) are arguing is that, in the round, in some specific illness states, where the immune balance is disrupted away from the ideal in many of these pathways and networks, some herbs are on average quite well suited to shifting the overall balance of all of these different "volume knobs" back towards what would be a more natural balance and will be therefore beneficial to the host -
and since certain illness states upset the immune factors in a certain pattern - that there are therefore certain herbs that are suited to each ailment

this is the basis of much of buhner's work - and you can see how, without knowing anything of the science of cytokines, chemokines or epigenetics - herbal practitioners might have selected herbs or combinations of herbs based on signs and symptoms - as in Traditional Chinese Medicine

i would say the provisos we need to be aware of here are things like-
1, the entire network is not mapped:
- either for human beings in the first place - maybe 50%(my guess) of the immune system network is understood
- or the impact of drugs or especially herbs on this network is typically also only partially mapped

2, individual variability from person to person is relatively high in the immune system - otherwise something could come along that could could effectively wipe all of us out - so evolution has created a survival advantage by generating more variability here than in most other places.

i do think there are some herbs that on balance help in some illness states - and we often know enough to identify some that might be worth trying, but there is no one size fits all and ultimately, due to individual variability, there is always a trial and error approach to finding which ones work well enough for us to be worthwhile.

regarding cats claw and auto-immunity -
i have not read any scientific references to this being contra indicated win auto-immunity - and if they exist, unless they can show they have really dug into the specific immune pathways - i would suspect they are assumptions based on the over simplified model discussed above - so i would be wary of taking them at face value.

from personal experience perspective - i have hashimoto's - an auto-immune thyroid condition - and have been taking cats claw for maybe 5 years now consistently for lyme - my thyroid antibodies have decreased to back to within normal range in this time (I have also been taking T3 /T4 replacement therapy - which is known to reduce antibody levels after 12-24months - and following an immune modulating diet and lifestyle ) - so i would be surprised if the cats claw drive auto-immunity harder

in his later books Buhner describes salvia miltiorrhiza as an "immune adaptogen" - he says helpful in restoring the immune system to a more normal balance especially in chronic bacterial infections - and includes it in his protocols for lyme and co-infections. so that looks like a good option to try.

i think the benefits from cats claw and similar immune modulating herbs taken individually is often very subtle and also tend to occur over a time period of weeks or months - in fact buhner suggests ramping up the dose gradually over a period of several weeks to start with - making the effects very hard to detect.
even then the effects are i think typically mild - which is why these herbs are usually taken in combinations - where each do just a little bit and hopefully add up to something useful over time.

whereas with adaptogens like schisandra and ashwaghanda or eleuthero or rhodiola - you can often feel the effect pretty much straight away - within hours.

i doubt it was the cats claw that made my antibodies decrease astro

i was just pointing to the fact i was able to get them down while taking it - even though others are concerned it might somehow cause AI to get worse

i think the diet /lifestyle stuff probably had the biggest impact in helping calm down auto-immunity
(keto diet, sleep, exercise)

maybe all the immune modulating buhner herbs help - i have been taking them a long while now - v hard to know for sure

there are also some studies showing that thyroid hormone replacement therapy causes thyroid antibodies to normalise after around 12-18 months - in a lot of cases

then the other day i came across a guy who has published some research in this area saying that:

new studies showing 20% of population have raised levels of anti thyroid antibodies( outside range) - 5% also have physical ultrasound detectable tissue damage in thyroid gland - but only under 1% are truly hypothyroid - in terms of out of range T3.... therefore thyroid antibodies alone does not equal hypothyroidism
he feels many people are overmedicated - due to trends in functional medicine that are not supported by recent research

he thinks other issues can and may be driving thyroid issues - esp gut issues - and those should be what is treated - rather than give thyroid hormones.
gut infections or parasites were two thing mentioned that can cause this.
studies also show little or no clinical improvement when treating people with thyroid hormones who have TSH of 5-8 ( some recent studies are arguing maybe starting to see some v slight benefit at 7)
and that often these people will have their TSH and thyroid hormones normalise over time in any case

apparently latest research shows only people that have TPO above 500 are likely to go on to develop full blown hypothyroidism within 6 years ( mine was 168 at peak ) and the other antibodies are much less diagnostic
there are risks of treating with thyroid hormones - approx. 2% increase in heart disease risk - ( not big - but not zero)

selenium is protective in small doses - <200mcg - antioxidant - helps body make glutathione - but should not be taken in large doses - or taken long term - benefits seem to occur in 3-6months - not further

his clinic can see people with fatigue, insomnia, etc who are actually suffering from the stimulant effect of too much thyroid meds ( not too little), but don’t know it - thinking its from their hypothyroidism - but is actually from chronic over use of the stimulating replacement thyroid hormone - so basically overstimulating themselves and having poor sleep - then being tired in the daytimes - and thinking that just down to their thyroid condition.

i haven't read the guys published studies - but there were some surprising and thought provoking stuff in there
(best to skip through all the annoying advertising at the beginning and get to the interview )
https://chriskresser.com/understanding-the-gut-thyroid-axis-hypothyroidism-and-hashimotos-with-dr-michael-ruscio/