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Bartonella - and Leaky-Gut

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Posted 2/1/2023 1:30 AM (GMT 0)

astroman said...
There is a new US drug still in trial for Celiacs that supposedly closes up the cell gaps in permeable gut lining.

Larazotide
Posted 2/1/2023 1:31 AM (GMT 0)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/larazotide
Posted 2/1/2023 2:43 AM (GMT 0)
Oh I just found out the trial was discontinued a few months ago:

https://celiac.org/about-the-foundation/featured-news/2022/06/9-meters-discontinues-phase-3-clinical-trial-for-potential-celiac-disease-drug-larazotide/
Posted 2/1/2023 3:01 AM (GMT 0)

RainyCloud said...
Oh I just found out the trial was discontinued a few months ago

Thats a bummer. 😕

To much red tape in getting pharmaceuticals approved for the US.
Posted 2/1/2023 4:47 PM (GMT 0)

carlnpa said...
Garzie

Have you considered trying Famotidine (pepcid) for the leaky gut?

I have been feeling much better and able to control herx/MCAS with famotidine reliably.

Check over on the facebook bart boards about this.

I have been using for about a month now, morning evening dosing.

Very well tolerated, very fast relief.

thanks for this Carl

i am curious and i have come across mentions of Famotidine a few times - but not dig into it.

i think what has put me off was that i was under the impression that it was a proton-pump-inhibitor
i am not sure if i have that right - but that's what was in my mind.

in general with leaky gut these are thought to be problematic as reduced stomach acid leads to many downstream effects - that tend to increase leaky gut rather than decrease it
eg poor protein digestion leading to more intact antigens in the small intestine etc

i have thyroid issues - hashimotos - from lyme / bart - hashi's is known to cause reduced stomach acid - and found overall symptoms improved when i took digestive acid supplements - eg betaine HCL

i will do bit of reading an see if i was missing something
Posted 2/1/2023 11:04 PM (GMT 0)
Garzie,

I feel so much better. The abx were giving me terrible acid reflux and I needed to try something to stop it. The famotidine did with the added benefit of controlling herx symptoms (that are likely MCAS).

I am aware of the issues with proton pump inhibitors - but MCAS/MCAD in the stomach occurs due to excess histamine build up in the stomach. The theory is the famotidine allows the stomach to heal from the MCAD histamine build up in the stomach.

"Histamine specifically activates the endothelium which increases blood vessel permeability and dilates the vessel"

"When histamine is released, it can lead to an over-production of stomach acid. This can cause heart burn, regurgitation, vomiting, abdominal pain and nausea."

IDK

Here is a reference that touches on the issue.

https://www.battlingbartonellosis.com/post/mast-cell-activation-syndrome

Post Edited (carlnpa) : 2/1/2023 3:16:47 PM (GMT-8)

Posted 2/2/2023 4:29 PM (GMT 0)
Ummm....

Forgive me for interrupting , leaky gut and acid reflux are two completely different things.

One does not feel “Instant relief” from leaky gut healing (intestinal permeability) as it takes months to years to heal.

On the other hand, Acid reflux, gerd, heartburn (all are basically the same) can have symptom changes day to day. This is from a leaking lower esophageal sphincter (LES valve) alowing acid up into Esophagus, or throat.

D-limonine helps for both, but way more noticeable for healing the LES valve while still maintaining proper stomach acid which is needed to digest properly.
Posted 2/2/2023 4:57 PM (GMT 0)
Was just quickly scanning the posts. (Son has celiac disease)
I wonder how would trials for celiac meds work?
The participants would have to eat gluten and possibly damage their intestines?
Posted 2/2/2023 5:10 PM (GMT 0)
thanks for the additional info Carl

i don't have any overt MCAS reactions that i know of - other than moderate to strong herx reactions to whatever treatment i do - which could be related

i will defo look into it - if its a general regarded as safe med and easy to obtain - which i think it is - it might be worth a try on a simple trial and error basis

will read the link you posted

cheers!
Posted 2/2/2023 5:15 PM (GMT 0)
I am well aware that they are two different things.

I am saying that I believe that famotidine reduces histamine response from the stomach and endothelial tissues.
Posted 2/2/2023 6:27 PM (GMT 0)
Garzie is trying to fix leaky gut.

What is the connection of histamine response to leaky gut? If there is, I have not heard of this before.

In my case I tested negative for histamine issues Numerous times, however; I had leaky gut for years.

Note: It’s great if H2 blockers help some people with reflux, however most people with Hashimoto’s, (Garzie and myself included) actually need more stomach acid, not less. This is very common.

.

Post Edited (astroman) : 2/2/2023 11:46:34 AM (GMT-8)

Posted 2/2/2023 8:28 PM (GMT 0)
Forget the reflux, famotidine is doing much more to help with my MCAS/lyme/babesia/bartonella symptoms. Others are reporting similar positive results.

I have thyroid issues also.

Lots of things cause leaky gut.

"Histamine Intolerance Originates in the Gut" pub med

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8069563/

Here is another

https://healinghistamine.com/blog/how-histamine-causes-leaky-gut/

Post Edited (carlnpa) : 2/2/2023 12:37:50 PM (GMT-8)

Posted 2/2/2023 8:58 PM (GMT 0)

carlnpa said...
Forget the reflux, famotidine is doing much more to help with my MCAS/lyme/babesia/bartonella symptoms. Others are reporting similar positive results.

I have thyroid issues also.

Lots of things cause leaky gut.

"Histamine Intolerance Originates in the Gut" pub med

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8069563/

Here is another

https://healinghistamine.com/blog/how-histamine-causes-leaky-gut/

Thats Interesting for those with Histamine Intolerance or MCAS, (Ive not experienced those). In my case, Ive learned that I cant take H2 blockers (tried for reflux a decade years ago), as it will eventually cause worse reflux and digestion problems in about one week from low stomach acid (similar to some other people too).

H2 blocker did help with COVID body aches and ear ringing for a few days though - and even after my reaction with the Moderna COVID vac a couple years ago.

"Lots of things cause leaky gut." - yes, including Candida and Gluten sensitivities/intolerance amongst other things out there.

.
Posted 2/2/2023 9:16 PM (GMT 0)
I think the famotidine response to cytokines may be why some are experiencing some longer relief.

Its interesting reading. Related to Pattersons work with long covid.

https://www.northwell.edu/news/the-latest/famotidine-reduces-cytokine-storm-symptoms-covid
Posted 2/2/2023 11:23 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks for sharing carlnpa, that's very interesting. I had heard about the famotidine benefits for covid but never made the correlation to lyme/cytokines. It makes sense. So glad it's helping you! 🙂
Posted 2/2/2023 11:39 PM (GMT 0)
quick/hyper link version from your post.:

https://www.northwell.edu/news/the-latest/famotidine-reduces-cytokine-storm-symptoms-covid
Posted 2/3/2023 4:53 PM (GMT 0)
thanks both for the discussion and input

i guess it comes down to what is causing the leaky gut in the first place and individual response to the drug - both of which involve quite a bit of guesswork

so it may just be something one has to suck it and see with

since its easily available and relatively safe - as week or so trial would not be too hard to do
if suffering with herx that had a MCAS kind of flavour to it - it may well make sense to just give it a go for some relief
Posted 2/3/2023 5:53 PM (GMT 0)

Garzie said...
thanks both for the discussion and input

i guess it comes down to what is causing the leaky gut in the first place and individual response to the drug - both of which involve quite a bit of guesswork

so it may just be something one has to suck it and see with

since its easily available and relatively safe - as week or so trial would not be too hard to do
if suffering with herx that had a MCAS kind of flavour to it - it may well make sense to just give it a go for some relief

As a trial- one could possibly take an H2 blocker for these above purposes (not for reducing stomach acid), and still take additional supplemental acid along with D-Limonine.

------------------------------------------

I guess I am lucky that I've never experienced MCAS with my food intolerance's. My food intolerance's did not exhibit any sudden onset noticeable/physical symptoms, more internal as time went by - such as thyroid issues possibly from gluten. And then Fodmap foods don't create a cytokine response in me, but will create internal digestive issues (not unheard of), still not of the MCAS variety.

There are certainly many MCAS posts here throughout the years.

I had a full cytokine panel after about one year on my "personal" blood tested diet, all was well.
Posted 2/3/2023 9:15 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
Was just quickly scanning the posts. (Son has celiac disease)
I wonder how would trials for celiac meds work?
The participants would have to eat gluten and possibly damage their intestines?

Yes this is how the trial went according to someone who was in it. She said she could finally tolerate gluten while she was in the trial. I believe she said she had a burger.
Posted 2/3/2023 9:59 PM (GMT 0)

RainyCloud said...

Girlie said...
Was just quickly scanning the posts. (Son has celiac disease)
I wonder how would trials for celiac meds work?
The participants would have to eat gluten and possibly damage their intestines?

Yes this is how the trial went according to someone who was in it. She said she could finally tolerate gluten while she was in the trial. I believe she said she had a burger.

I really hope they find some way to try this again. What a shame they canned it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Although fast food is not good for you, there is at least one Regional fast food Burger joint that offers warmed and individually packaged GF buns for an additional $1.50 - Culvers from Wisconsin. They have recently moved well beyond the north central states all the way to my friends in Texas, Florida, Arizona and all states in between.

Their strategy appears to go where the retired winter "snowbirds" from MN and WS go to in the winter lol!!! Smart move on their part.
Posted 2/23/2023 9:27 AM (GMT 0)

Garzie said...
interesting that it looks like there is another soluble factor that bart produces that induces vassoproliferation

Hey Garzie,

Remember that BafA auto-transporter on page 1 of this thread?

Check this out from a study published yesterday: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36810719/

Seems like it was just found in B. elizabethae to be at play as well. It claims it's pro-angiogenic.

Sorry, I don't have access to the entire study, but thought you might be interested.
Posted 2/23/2023 6:32 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks Rainy - i will defo have a read
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