Continuing probitotics and decreasing abx

as the article states - i don't think anyone knows yet as there is not yet enough actual research done on the subject - even in healthy people - let alone those with Lyme etc - which may have different outcomes

in general the number of different organism we can supplement in probiotic form is tiny vs the number of different types in the gut - and as the quote above indicates - there are mixed reports from studies on the benefits

some very well done studies actually show the gut is actually disturbed from its normal microbiome pattern for longer in those that use probiotics while on antibiotics than without ( ie the reverse of what we are typically told)
there does seem to be a general protective effect against the more severe forms of c-diff with probiotics alongside abx than without though -

so i think it fair to say that the consensus tends to point to some measurable benefit in terms of preventing severe C-Diff - but probiotic use during abx treatment is likely not all its cracked up to be. they tend to be a drop in the ocean in terms of numbers and variety

so, personally i would not worry too much about the topic
if i had been using them this long i would continue as long as i was on abx
probably only on the weeks i was using abx - not so much the off weeks

i would instead focus on diversifying my gut bacteria with as many sources of fibre, coloured veg, mushrooms, etc etc in the diet as i could manage - as diversity in the gut microbiome is protective and reliably associated with better health outcomes - and diversity in the diet more than probiotics drives diversity in the microbiome. its this diversity that protects against blooms of C-Diff etc - as there are less niches available for invasive species when the microbiomes is more diverse

Garzie said...
n general the number of different organism we can supplement in probiotic form is tiny vs the number of different types in the gut - and as the quote above indicates - there are mixed reports from studies on the benefits

exactly. Which is another reason I am considering reducing dramatically. This stuff isn't cheap.

Garzie said...
some very well done studies actually show the gut is actually disturbed from its normal microbiome pattern for longer in those that use probiotics while on antibiotics than without ( ie the reverse of what we are typically told)

That is interesting.

Garzie said...
ocus on diversifying my gut bacteria with as many sources of fibre, coloured veg, mushrooms, etc etc in the diet as i could manage - as diversity in the gut microbiome is protective and reliably associated with better health outcomes - and diversity in the diet more than probiotics drives diversity in the microbiome. its this diversity that protects against blooms of C-Diff etc - as there are less niches available for invasive species when the microbiomes is more diverse

This is what I have been doing with supplements and probiotics are my next group I am looking at. I am trying to get off the "kill" mentality and get more into the feed one.

Why not try a protocol with less time off, or even continuous, until you start to improve? It sounds like you are just holding it in check just enough, but not killing enough to further improve. Do you have any co infections? Also, I’m assuming you see dr J?

Yes I see Dr. J. I have been treating with him since 2012. IV and orals

Post Edited (trkane) : 11/16/2023 5:59:09 AM (GMT-8)

trkane said...
For a few years I had been on a 1 week on 4-5 weeks off (maintenance). That week contained 3-4 different abx. Now I am on week 1 of zith (MWF) and then week 2 rifabutin (MWF). Then 5 weeks off. I am starting to wonder if I should be taking the amount of probiotics that I took when under for instance IV treatment (which is what I am am doing).

Can you get overgrowth of the good bacteria that are in probiotics when you don't have a huge amount of abx that kill it off? It seems that as you are winding down abx you should be winding down probiotics.

I found this article ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7386065/) which states

"More specifically, those individuals with recent probiotic use were more likely to have methane-positive LBT but not hydrogen-positive LBT. These findings suggest that probiotic use can predispose to overgrowth of methanogenic bacteria. The use of probiotics can potentially increase the risk for methane predominant variant of SIBO which has been associated with constipation-predominant symptoms. The lack of clear consensus regarding probiotic use suggests that additional large scale studies are needed to better understand the effects of probiotics on SIBO risk."


FWIW I have been treating since 2011.

Usually we get an infection from too much bad bacteria but yes we can also have top much good bacteria that can cause infection as well. Lactobacillus is suppose to be good bacteria but I had too much before and it actually caused me issues like more bloating, nausea, gas, and other symptoms down there if you are female it'll give you a lactobacillus infection down there which is very similar to bacterial vagnosis or cyclic vagnosis. Loads of doctors don't think so or even mention it. Some don't believe it but I had a good doc at the time who pointed out what can happen when we have too much "good" bacteria. If we're on abx though, I'd highly doubt this will happen , I'd say we need all the probiotics we can get while on abx. Anything cn get out of balance though I suppose.