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Covid Influence Lyme Titres?

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Posted 2/14/2023 2:21 PM (GMT 0)
I've been tested for Lyme at least 100 times. I've always been Elisa positive. Always. I recently got Covid. Was on paxlovid for five days. Five days later got tested for Lyme - and my Elisa was negative. First negative in 20 years of testing.

Anyone have any thoughts on a possible correlation with covid and paxlovid and me finally generating a negative Elisa?
Posted 2/14/2023 3:38 PM (GMT 0)
both drugs in that medication have a host of off target effects - that could effect the body and its immune system in some unknown way

but it should not be overlooked that COVID itself has some pretty significant immune dysregulating effects - and so could well have knocked out the bodies normal ability to produce antibodies to lyme in the short term.

quick question - why so many Lyme tests over the years ?
normally once one has a positive test result - its more about moving on to treatment
Posted 2/14/2023 3:57 PM (GMT 0)
My infectous disease doctor likes to keep track. For instance, I used to test positive for bartonella. He treated that aggressively and now I no longer do. But my ID guy still checks, even via vegf levels, just to make sure. Ditto with babs, which I also keep testing positive.

Also, I've been in a boat load of studies. Bethesda has tested me 30 or 40 times alone.

More to the point: how do you identify an active Lyme infection? It's hard to do, truly next to impossible to confirm,. But one way is to test frequently and see if titres rise and fall. If they do, it they go up and then down then up then down etc, that is highly suggestive of an active infection.

Post Edited (duncan) : 2/14/2023 8:06:06 AM (GMT-8)

Posted 2/14/2023 4:11 PM (GMT 0)
Are you testing for igm and igg antibodies? When you tested negative for Bart, was that pcr, fish, or igm negative? Assuming you showed igg antibodies if you tested for those.
Posted 2/14/2023 4:20 PM (GMT 0)
i don't know why some LLMD' or other MD's do this - there are numerous peer reviewed papers out there that show Lyme antibodies can and do persist in some people for years/decades or even for life

so its hard to understand the utility of repeat testing
Posted 2/14/2023 4:24 PM (GMT 0)
Well, not quite accurate. There's an asterik with that theory - which was put forth back in the 80's when they couldn't have known - and the asterik is that values may remain positive, but should decline. They should decline. There's nothing in there about declining and then going back up.
Posted 2/14/2023 4:26 PM (GMT 0)
Hello Fronton, Igg and Igm. For Lyme 2t and MTTT. For babs and bart just antibody testing.
Posted 2/14/2023 4:32 PM (GMT 0)
Some llmd do test after treatment. Charles ray Jones said some parents would test their kids for igm and pcr after treatment concluded for peace of mind. I know Dr RS in Bay Area tests for igm throughout treatment as a guide as well.
Posted 2/14/2023 4:34 PM (GMT 0)
but the levels go up and down for many lyme sufferers from test to test
or some bands disappear and new ones arise on a western blot over time

so yes - we do see cases where antibodies go down then up again

serologic testing for lyme is in general very problematic - but especially using it to try to determine if the infection has been eradicated.

not having a test that accurately does that is acknowledged as one of the main gaps with Lyme testing around the world right now
Posted 2/14/2023 4:45 PM (GMT 0)
There is no way to demonstrate if Lyme has been eradicated. None. But there are ways to nudge spirochetes to see if they're there. But those ways are unreliable at best.
Posted 2/14/2023 4:57 PM (GMT 0)
Even those with only an EM rash who treat within hours can potentially show igg bodies for the rest of their life, correct?
Posted 2/14/2023 5:02 PM (GMT 0)
Or forever quell the body's ability to produce measurable, i.e. a positive response, Bb antibodies. Weird paradoxical stuff.

Post Edited (duncan) : 2/14/2023 9:11:09 AM (GMT-8)

Posted 2/14/2023 5:26 PM (GMT 0)
“ not having a test that accurately does that is acknowledged as one of the main gaps with Lyme testing around the world right now“

True.

You can test negative but still have active Lyme.
You can test positive and be in remission.
Posted 2/16/2023 6:13 PM (GMT 0)
testing for immune response of bacteria is not the same as visual or dna confirmation.
as the lil doc in uos documentary said " borrelia is easily viewed by regular brightfield microscopy "

my best guess is spiked protiens are disabling your immune response. if you have viral out break of ebv or any simian viruses it may confirm this . im seeing 6-8 weeks of iver or alinia usually is needed to give a kickstart in right direction ... keep us posted
Posted 2/17/2023 4:18 PM (GMT 0)
A lot of great thoughts here already.. these buggers also evolve as they reproduce/change outer layer. Could change the antibody? Hence a sudden negative as that test is a coin toss anyway lol (somebody getting that fat royalty check though!)
Posted 2/17/2023 6:27 PM (GMT 0)

loski01 said...
A lot of great thoughts here already.. these buggers also evolve as they reproduce/change outer layer. Could change the antibody? Hence a sudden negative as that test is a coin toss anyway lol (somebody getting that fat royalty check though!)

yep - i think this is likely what's happening a lot of the time when we see bands disappear on western blots - the organism has just rotated its outer surface proteins to fool the immune system

its also why its common to see IgM in chronic infections- to the immune system its a whole new bug it hasn't seen before - so it makes IgM to the new outer surface proteins.

i feel we have perhaps been a little harsh on the OP though
for instance if a person was testing regularly anyway due to being in studies - and they saw that each subsequent test the antibody levels were steadily dropping - AND symptoms were also improving in line
one could reasonably interpret that as some degree of evidence that their body was fighting off the infection and they were heading for remission
as we have discussed - its not proof - or definitive - but it could be taken as one data point in a kind of probabilistic calculation / assessment of what is likely to be going on.
the difficulty being that this nice regular reduction in titres in serial tests is not perhaps the most common finding for most people with lyme - but it could happen in a subset who are successfully treated.
Posted 2/17/2023 7:51 PM (GMT 0)
No, that's not what I was saying. :But thank you for thinking of me.

My values fluctuate, and I'm taking antigenic variation into consideration. Not just bands, but ELISA numbers. CD-57, too. This is one of the reasons I was a fan of the C6, cuz you could follow its direction. Of course, that test has disappeared into the MTTT-wanna be mist....

Post Edited (duncan) : 2/17/2023 11:54:13 AM (GMT-8)

Posted 2/17/2023 7:54 PM (GMT 0)
OK - fair enough

just didn't want to be too harsh or closed off to there being any value at all

fluctuating values pretty much the norm i think
Posted 2/17/2023 7:55 PM (GMT 0)
Right, but not according to IDSA/CDC doctrine. All those studies from the '80's. We defy them.
Posted 2/17/2023 8:03 PM (GMT 0)

duncan said...
Right, but not according to IDSA/CDC doctrine. All those studies from the '80's. We defy them.

but the ISDA and CDC are just so far off base its just not worth even entertaining them at this stage

i did hear there was a new head honcho at the CDC who was supposedly going to clean house - but i don't think very much will really change in the next 5 years - maybe when the old guard retire...

very sad
Posted 2/17/2023 8:04 PM (GMT 0)
If past is prologue, we're likely to be disappointed.
Posted 2/17/2023 9:50 PM (GMT 0)

Garzie said...
i don't know why some LLMD' or other MD's do this - there are numerous peer reviewed papers out there that show Lyme antibodies can and do persist in some people for years/decades or even for life

so its hard to understand the utility of repeat testing

Yes - none of my Lyme docs (including Dr J who has the most experience with Lyme) have done repeated testing.
Posted 2/17/2023 10:45 PM (GMT 0)
This is an interesting discussion and I saved it in my reference list yesterday. I see there have been more comments today. I thought I would chime in, too.

My Lyme doc includes the Lyme Western blot, CD57, babesia, and bartonella antibodies each time she orders labs (Labcorp), so I have been tested many times. My first Labcorp WB was positive on 41 and 66 in 2016. I started seeing this doctor in 2017. Every WB I have had since the first one was positive only on band 41. Then, in January and August 2020 (the only WB’s that year) were suddenly completely negative. The one or two since then were positive again.

My CD57 levels have fluctuated from 30’s to 80’s and have been lowest while living in mold and highest months after getting out of mold. It didn’t really correlate with symptoms. I still had symptoms regardless.

I have never seen an Elisa, so I don’t know about values. The WB just shows positive or negative.

I know Dr M (bart guru) tests repeatedly and I have heard of others in the past - maybe Dr Jones as someone mentioned. Dr M is well respected by doctors and patients alike. I am sure he has reasons for doing so, although I am not sure what testing methods he uses. I think he may use multiple methods, including microsopy. I believe he tests for all 3 B’s in some way or other.
Posted 2/17/2023 10:52 PM (GMT 0)
Well, silly me, Girlie. Check virology 101. And I don't care who you quote: No one knows anything meaningful. Insert any name you want. Burrasacano was throwing darts.

What we need to do is demonstrate repeatedly they were wrong.They were wrong.

Devilishly difficult to do without a proper test. Guess why we don't have one - or at least as we do in syphilis, like a compromise. Each breakthrough test whether it was culture or PCR has been squelched, each study "died stillborne on the press." .I'd be happy to discuss with Dr anybody.

Post Edited (duncan) : 2/18/2023 4:08:19 AM (GMT-8)

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