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Posted 3/5/2023 2:14 AM (GMT 0)
I did long term antibiotics 9 years ago. For 9 months I was on minocycline, rifampin and plaquenil. I look back now, knowing what I know, and it was one of the worst mistakes of my life. It completely destroyed my gut/digestive system, leaving me with severe chronic bloat for the last 9 years. After many bad doctors, I have been working with a great natural dr for the last 2 full years. He has been helping me with my lyme and co infecitons and gut and eveyrthing. So I am not looking for supplement protocol advice, as I am happy with his suggestions. But while many of my lyme/parasite etc and heart (thankfully) issues are improving, my gut issues/bloating are still horrible. I met with my dr this week and he explained that it is a slow long process, I have lots of yeasts and fungus and ameoba and other bad things that are growing in my gut instead of the good bacteria. I Am recomitting to a more supportive diet, we have figured out which foods I should eat and not eat, and we are on a new regimen of supportive supplements to work on healing this.
What I am writing this post for is to ask: HAS ANYONE ELSE HERE DONE ( AND REGRETTED) LONG LONG TERM ( LIKE 9 MONTHS OR MORE) OF ANTIBIOTCS IN THE PAST TO TREAT THEIR LYME, AND THEN DESTROYED THEIR GUT. AND THEN HEALED IT? IF SO, HOW LONG DID IT TAKE, HOW MUCH BETTER ARE YOU, AND WHAT DID YOU USE. MY MAIN ISSUE IS SEVERE CHRONIC BLOAT ALL THE TIME. AND MY DIGESTION IS JUST A MESS. i SUPER REGRET TAKING THOSE ANTIBIOTICS, I DID NOT KNOW HOW TO WELL TAKE CARE OF MYSELF AT THE TIME.
now I treat with a natural dr and all natrual, but those antibitocs did some serious damage to my body and I wonder if I can ever ever get my gut health back.
I am looking for stories of anyone who ruined their gut health form abx taken for lyme in a serious way, and then regained it.
Posted 3/5/2023 4:49 AM (GMT 0)
Sorry to hear you’re having gut issues.
Were you not taking probiotics when you did the abx?
Did the Lyme doc not tell you that you should be?

I did take abx for longer than 9 months and I don’t have any serious gut issues.
Posted 3/5/2023 8:35 AM (GMT 0)
Most people on antibiotics use them longer than nine months so that wasn’t terribly too long.

My gut was kind of a wreck after antibiotics but it was a wreck before antibiotics also. I had a lot of gut candida.

In my experience my bloating was caused from gut candida albicans , fodmap foods and gluten. Like many people here I had several rounds each of nystatin and Diflucan.

If I eat too many grains, even gluten-free pasta sweets cereals, Starches etc. candida will come back. I 100% avoid pastries cakes, Pies, etc.

And FODMAP foods are fuel for Sibo which also causes bloating just lower.

Fine-tuning my diet was still going on after I stopped antibiotics so it’s not like one day I woke up and everything was great, it was a gradual change.

I stopped antibiotics about six years ago. My gut was at its best point about two years ago. Last year I had some difficulty digesting fats which is a different subject.

(Since I’m all for 50 I had the gastro camera up my back door one time already and they checked out my microvilli which was A OK. So if there was any gluten damage it wasn’t visible or it healed. It’s hard to tell if I am actually celiac because I have low immunoglobulins which may hinderAntibody detection. Several non-FDA tests do suggest that my immune system is gluten sensitive with inflammation.)

.

Post Edited (astroman) : 3/5/2023 12:43:34 AM (GMT-8)

Posted 3/5/2023 8:27 PM (GMT 0)
I have similar GI issues. What is interesting is while I was on Disulfiram all of my symptoms improved including GI. It seemed to be killing microbes without nuking the gut flora like antibiotics. This lead me to suspect that killing microbes and improving disease syndrome will likely improve gut functioning.

As far as dealing with the issues acutely watching diet is a huge thing. My gut is super reactive now. Makes me wonder about MCAS or Bart. Additionally, add high potency probiotics. Maybe throw in some antifungals.

But work with your doctor as hopefully they should have a better understanding than us. Seems like you are moving in the right direction.

Did antibiotics seem to stop your lyme illness? With just GI stuff leftover?
Posted 3/5/2023 8:43 PM (GMT 0)

Lymie24 said...
I have similar GI issues. What is interesting is while I was on Disulfiram all of my symptoms improved including GI. It seemed to be killing microbes without nuking the gut flora like antibiotics. This lead me to suspect that killing microbes and improving disease syndrome will likely improve gut functioning.

As far as dealing with the issues acutely watching diet is a huge thing. My gut is super reactive now. Makes me wonder about MCAS or Bart. Additionally, add high potency probiotics. Maybe throw in some antifungals.

But work with your doctor as hopefully they should have a better understanding than us. Seems like you are moving in the right direction.

Did antibiotics seem to stop your lyme illness? With just GI stuff leftover?

antibiotics did not in any way stop the lyme, and for me only harmed me a ton. I know every person has their own unique experience and this is mine. Then, with the weakened gut from the antibitoics, the lyme and other assorted pathogens had an environment in which to thrive. Now I have, working with herbs and supplements, managed to start to get some control over the lyme and assorted pathogens, still a ways to go, and to some of the other damage. But the bloat is still a terrible symptom for me.
Posted 3/5/2023 9:19 PM (GMT 0)
i think bartonella in particular drives a lot of gut symptoms

bartonella is known to infect the cells that line the gut from the mouth all the way through to the anus it causes gastritis, colitis, auto-immune liver and gall bladder disease, MCAS reactions to food, GERD etc etc

see my recent threads on HIF-1 stimulated by Bartonella causing damage to the gut lining via hypoxia and inflammation

bartonella can be very hard to get to respond to conventional antibiotics - and rarely shows up in mist standard tests - so people are often unaware they have it. only a minority get the streaks rash and serology is hopeless at detecting it - PCR not much better.

i was negative via serology and ELISPOT for bartonella at Armin labs - but later found it definitively via blood smear

Bloat, IBS, digestive issues and many sorts have all been symptoms i struggled with since getting ill
my gut was messed up before 9 months of antibiotics and if anything mildly improved afterwards - not worse.

i believe it ruins the environment in the gut by stimulating inflammation and restricting blood flow - and that makes it near impossible to get the gut flora into a normal window - at least without getting the infection well under control

the best i have managed - in terms of symptoms management is via a wholefood ketogenic diet. thsi basically limits the amount of food for the dysbiosis bacteria in the gut(that are adding to the problem) to feed on and thereby reduces symptoms - and takes a load off the immune system - so overall health moved forward also.

less carbs causes less bloat - and less fatigue / stiffness etc
Posted 3/7/2023 12:02 PM (GMT 0)
I could have written this post.

I am really starting to regret my long-term abx. I am sure pulsing helped but IV was rough. I needed them but I should have looked for other reasons sooner (like gut) for my continuing symptoms that were attributed to lyme.

When I had covid LLMD prescribed 10 days of mino. I could barely make it to day 7. I can't explain the feeling but I just couldn't do it.

I would love to go to a functional med doctor. But they are really expensive only to find out they suck. I would pay it if I thought they could really help me.

I am going back to my GI doctor and ask for sibo test. I have found a low ox diet really helpful with bloating. Apparently oxalates cause candida to go into the invasive form. Low ox causes it to go back to "round ball".

Please update this post if you find anything that works.
Posted 3/7/2023 12:41 PM (GMT 0)
There was a study where the participants took 30+ different types of vegetables for a month and the microbiome had improved significantly.

It's a lot of vegetables but the take-away was that it's not necessarily the amount of vegetables itself, but the amount of different types of vegetables that increase the beneficial bacteria in the gut.

Probiotics are helpful during antibiotic treatment but they are usually flushed out upon quitting them. They help because, while on antibiotic it prevents yeast overgrowth.

For example the well-studied L. Reuteri strain by BioGaia (ATCC PTA 6475) is thought be around for only a couple weeks and that's one of the more resistant strains.

Other strains are often flushed out sooner. I've cultured/made yogurt out of the 6475 strain, it has many benefits but it's really tricky to get the yogurt just right.

I finally have the recipe down to a science now after many failed batches. Other yogurts are way easier to make.

Anyway, back to my original point.... the idea that probiotics capsules/pills colonize the gut is often plain wrong. I'm not huge on vegetables but they do help the gut better in that sense.

There are soil based probiotics that form permanent spores in the body but that comes with potential issues. I've gone over this in a different post.
Posted 3/7/2023 10:20 PM (GMT 0)

RainyCloud said...
There was a study where the participants took 30+ different types of vegetables for a month and the microbiome had improved significantly.

It's a lot of vegetables but the take-away was that it's not necessarily the amount of vegetables itself, but the amount of different types of vegetables that increase the beneficial bacteria in the gut.

Probiotics are helpful during antibiotic treatment but they are usually flushed out upon quitting them. They help because, while on antibiotic it prevents yeast overgrowth.

For example the well-studied L. Reuteri strain by BioGaia (ATCC PTA 6475) is thought be around for only a couple weeks and that's one of the more resistant strains.

Other strains are often flushed out sooner. I've cultured/made yogurt out of the 6475 strain, it has many benefits but it's really tricky to get the yogurt just right.

I finally have the recipe down to a science now after many failed batches. Other yogurts are way easier to make.

Anyway, back to my original point.... the idea that probiotics capsules/pills colonize the gut is often plain wrong. I'm not huge on vegetables but they do help the gut better in that sense.

There are soil based probiotics that form permanent spores in the body but that comes with potential issues. I've gone over this in a different post.

Yes, just this week , since my last visit w my natural dr, we had a big discussion about diet and I have improved my diet a lot just very recently. Now I am deliberatley eating more real foods and less processed or packaged foods. And eating to rebuild the gut. like good fruits, varieties of vehgetables. soup, fish, healthier oils ( avocado and coconut), less juice more water and coconut water. Taking away all the foods I had tested sensative to that I had been allowing in. So I am hoping sticking to this type of eating will help a lot. I also started a probiotic along with my dr has me on herbs and a lot of supportive minerals.
Posted 3/8/2023 3:18 AM (GMT 0)

flowergarden said...
I did long term antibiotics 9 years ago. For 9 months I was on minocycline, rifampin and plaquenil. I look back now, knowing what I know, and it was one of the worst mistakes of my life. It completely destroyed my gut/digestive system, leaving me with severe chronic bloat for the last 9 years. After many bad doctors, I have been working with a great natural dr for the last 2 full years. He has been helping me with my lyme and co infecitons and gut and eveyrthing. So I am not looking for supplement protocol advice, as I am happy with his suggestions. But while many of my lyme/parasite etc and heart (thankfully) issues are improving, my gut issues/bloating are still horrible. I met with my dr this week and he explained that it is a slow long process, I have lots of yeasts and fungus and ameoba and other bad things that are growing in my gut instead of the good bacteria. I Am recomitting to a more supportive diet, we have figured out which foods I should eat and not eat, and we are on a new regimen of supportive supplements to work on healing this.
What I am writing this post for is to ask: HAS ANYONE ELSE HERE DONE ( AND REGRETTED) LONG LONG TERM ( LIKE 9 MONTHS OR MORE) OF ANTIBIOTCS IN THE PAST TO TREAT THEIR LYME, AND THEN DESTROYED THEIR GUT. AND THEN HEALED IT? IF SO, HOW LONG DID IT TAKE, HOW MUCH BETTER ARE YOU, AND WHAT DID YOU USE. MY MAIN ISSUE IS SEVERE CHRONIC BLOAT ALL THE TIME. AND MY DIGESTION IS JUST A MESS. i SUPER REGRET TAKING THOSE ANTIBIOTICS, I DID NOT KNOW HOW TO WELL TAKE CARE OF MYSELF AT THE TIME.
now I treat with a natural dr and all natrual, but those antibitocs did some serious damage to my body and I wonder if I can ever ever get my gut health back.
I am looking for stories of anyone who ruined their gut health form abx taken for lyme in a serious way, and then regained it.

9 months is a long time. 1 time is enough. I time destroyed my sons gut and he's had severe bloating, indigestion and terrible gas past 2 yrs. He had diareah on 1st dose of abx. I took antibiotics for short amount like 2 weeks at a time and then few months later took abx again as a cycle for numerous things like ear infections, throat infections, stomach infections , dental etc . and this was before we found out I had lyme, bart and rickettsia . Looking back now I wish I knew better, that's all I'll say. I know have gut issues paat 7 yrs with bloating, nausea, severe gas, constipation, sometimes diareah plus weight loss. It's even worse when they tell you you're gallbladder etc is normal functioning and that your h. Pylori and sibo tests were also fine . I been diagnosed with IBS past 7 yrs from numerous gi docs. My llmd is positive it's bad case of sibo despite neg test that a primary care doc had given me. What helped a lot was diet change and no sugar or greasy foods, no processed or packaged or canned foods. My diet is salmon, wild caught fish, skinless chicken or turkey. Cut out grains as my stomach couldn't handle them. I do dark leafy greens sometimes. Bentonite liquid detox is like my best friend now plus bile salts and hydrochloric acid, digestive enzymes . Probiotics made me bloat and gas even more and nausea. You can't add in probiotics until you kill off the sibo or bad bacteria first and this is where I made my mistake the first few times. Bentonite liquid helps me poop and no bad side effects or herx that I noticed. My cramps dam near kill me. I can be on the toilet bowl amd next thing you know I'm sweating from the hard cramps.I can barely breath when Im cramping. I've also struggled with fat malabsorbtion and diarrhea or floating stools. It literally looks like oil or grease floating with the stools and it floats . It's really foul odor and I've been told that's pancreatitis acting up. My pancreas function was normal.yet I've had pancreatitis before which cause severe nausea and vomiting, rapid heart beat and fever and sweating. By time you vomit and get to the ER, they'll tell you your pancreas is normal or you may have a stomach bug or IBS. Load of bs. Made me so depressed I was scared tonest anything. Liquid diet worked.I now also do ginger raw in warm water which does wonders for bloating and nausea and takes my gas and burps out almost instantly. Also ceylon cinnamon which I have yet to try, I'm ordering some now. Rifaximin worked for a good long time but I relapsed. I think I'm going to treat parasites now. My abx treatment was put on hold by llmd because of gut inflammation.
Posted 3/8/2023 12:44 PM (GMT 0)

RainyCloud said...
There was a study where the participants took 30+ different types of vegetables for a month and the microbiome had improved significantly.


Do you have a link to that study?

RainyClound said...
Other strains are often flushed out sooner. I've cultured/made yogurt out of the 6475 strain, it has many benefits but it's really tricky to get the yogurt just right.
I finally have the recipe down to a science now after many failed batches. Other yogurts are way easier to make.


Do you think cultured products populate the gut better than traditional probiotics?

RainyCloud said...
There are soil based probiotics that form permanent spores in the body but that comes with potential issues. I've gone over this in a different post.


Do you have a link to that post? I was thinking about trying the soil based ones.
Posted 3/8/2023 3:26 PM (GMT 0)
Hey trkane,
Hope you're doing well !

trkane said...
Do you have a link to that study?


Sure thing, I lost the study when I wrote that, but I think I just found it again:

Big data from world's largest citizen science microbiome project serves food for thought
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180515092931.htm

"Diet. The number of plant types in a person's diet plays a role in the diversity of his or her gut microbiome -- the number of different types of bacteria living there. No matter the diet they prescribed to (vegetarian, vegan, etc.), participants who ate more than 30 different plant types per week (41 people) had gut microbiomes that were more diverse than those who ate 10 or fewer types of plants per week (44 people). The gut samples of these two groups also differed in the types of molecules present."

At the bottom of the page, there's the link to the actual study but it's a bit dense: http://dx.doi.org/10.1128/msystems.00031-18

"selecting individuals at the extremes of plant type consumption, i.e., eating <10 or >30 different types of plants per week."

[...]

"but was significantly higher in individuals consuming >30 types of plants and those consuming more fruits and vegetables generally"

trkane said...
Do you think cultured products populate the gut better than traditional probiotics?


Yes, the author of Super Gut (Dr. William Davis) calculated that the reuteri fermentation would lead to the culture microbes being in high the trillions. Theoretically this has a higher chance of populating.

trkane said...
Do you have a link to that post? I was thinking about trying the soil based ones.


Yes, it were several posts that I can't find right now, but I repeated my general point in my first post in this thread: https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=4314756

The problem is that the spores don't go away, they settle. Which is great if it helps you but some people get bad reactions to them. Who then have to resort to antibiotics to get rid of them, with poor results.
Posted 3/8/2023 4:41 PM (GMT 0)
just to re-iterate

of all of the people i have spoken to or read about here and on other forums or in person who have tick born infections and struggle with gut issues

v few have dramatic or curative results for their gut symptoms with probiotics - even if they use them for extended periods or in high doses - some have some mild temporary symptom relief - but many have worsening of symptoms - not improvement, as their guts do not tolerate probiotics well.

the supplement companies want us to believe with their hyped marketing claims - that antibiotics do lasting damage to the gut - and that probiotics are the solution. or in fact no matter what is wrong with out gut - probiotics are the cure.

the reality is different

in reality we can in any case only supplement with a tiny % of the different types of bacterial that live in our guts - the rest we simply have not figured out how to culture and put in a tablet or other probiotic product

and in reality most species of probiotic we do have do not take up permanent residence - and therefore have only transient effects, mainly by interacting with our immune system, as they pass through.

how many actually reach the small or large intestine alive varies dramatically from product to product and even from individual to individual

its likely that which species survive or even partially colonise depends more on the existing landscape inside the gut of the individual more than dose or brand etc - otherwise, if we had a healthy gut environment, we would tend to have a healthy microbiome in the first place

people with inflamed or damaged guts from infections or food intolerances may be losing the actual gut lining tissues tissues through shedding of the mucosal membrane - and the landscape that is left behind is very different from heathy mucosa that some of these beneficial species are adapted to colonise.

there is good evidence that even intact but inflamed tissues have an altered microbiome living on them - one which favours more pathogenic species and further drives inflammation

i don't think they are necessarily a bad thing in themselves - i just think we need to operate with a better model of what is going on in the pathology of functional gut issues - rather than the simplistic narrative given to us by companies trying to sell us something.

i think greater mileage can be gained by addressing the gut environment - rather than just adding exogenous microbes to "unfertile soil"

i am sorry if this goes against the grain of what is generally thought - but i have studied the gut and the microbiome in some detail over the last 8 years - and just want to offer a alternate perspective as i do think too many people get sucked into product marketing claims and functional medicine Dr's mantras - where the actual fact based evidence is either to the contrary or still lacking.

my intention is only to help you spend your money and efforts in directions that can help you the most
Posted 3/8/2023 5:48 PM (GMT 0)

flowergarden said...
Yes, just this week , since my last visit w my natural dr, we had a big discussion about diet and I have improved my diet a lot just very recently. Now I am deliberatley eating more real foods and less processed or packaged foods. And eating to rebuild the gut. like good fruits, varieties of vehgetables. soup, fish, healthier oils ( avocado and coconut), less juice more water and coconut water. Taking away all the foods I had tested sensative to that I had been allowing in. So I am hoping sticking to this type of eating will help a lot. I also started a probiotic along with my dr has me on herbs and a lot of supportive minerals.

That's great flowergarden! Sounds like your doctor knows what he or she is doing. I hope it will go well for you!
Posted 3/17/2023 4:51 PM (GMT 0)
This conversation got me interested in the dynamics of taking probiotics during or after courses of antibiotics. I am not nearly as read up as others here, such as Garzie, however I found this article the Kresser Institute that shows that the intuition of probiotics during and after antibiotic therapy being a good thing is not necessarily correct. I'll link the article here then go into a few specifics from it.

https://chriskresser.com/are-probiotics-useless-heres-a-microbiome-researchers-perspective/

I would recommend reading the whole article. It goes into studies that show evidence that probiotics don't necessarily colonize the GI tract in all humans. In a 15 person study they found that 6 people were able to colonize with probiotics while 9 were not. However, this study and studies in mice show that probiotics do influence the host's immune system even if the effects are transient. While that may be disappointin for Lyme sufferers and users of antibiotics it probably is a good thing. Your normal unadulterated microbiome protects you from overgrowth of microbes. Your gut is trying to maintain homeostasis. I'd rather my gut maintain that homeostasis than run wild with an invasive microbe.

Now to the really interesting stuff. I'd highly recommend reading, at the very least, findings 5, 6, and 7. To sum it up, Israeli scientists performed an experiment on mice and humans using different intervention strategies after a course of abx. They gave ciprofloxacin and metronidazole to mice for 14 days and the same abx in humans for 7 days. There were three groups.

Group 1: Did nothing after abx
Group 2: Supplemented with an 11-strain probiotic (5 billion cfu of Lacto and Bifido) (No spore or Saccho B strains) for 4 weeks after abx course
Group 3: Had a poop sample taken before their abx course and had an FMT done, using their pre-abx poop, the day after they finished abx.

The results are astonishing IMO. The mice who were provided probiotics had a " probiotic supplementation significantly delayed the return to baseline microbiome richness, even compared to spontaneous recovery, and that several taxa were slower to return to baseline."

In humans? The authors of the paper write:

“…probiotics-consuming individuals did not return to their baseline stool microbiome configuration by the end of the intervention period (day 28), and dysbiosis was maintained even 5 months after probiotics cessation, with all stool samples collected through day 180 remaining significantly different from baseline.

Finding # 6 shows that Lactobacillus most strongly inhibited a return the baseline microbiome levels.

Finding #7 shows that those who did the aFMT (reinoculating youself with your pre-abx poop) had the most significant and quickest recovery. Quote from the article:

"In humans, the fecal microbiota had recovered to baseline composition as early as one day after aFMT!"

How insane! Unfortunately, it is far too late for most Lymies to pursue this path, but it does add credence, IMO, that FMTs could help Lyme patients after they are done with their abx courses. Of course, the problem with FMTs is the potential side effects of introducing someone else's poop into your body. Not every microbe in a person's poop can be accounted for and you won't know for certain how your body will react to another person's poop microbe's until the procedure has been done.

The results of this study suggest that doing nothing after an abx course is superior to probiotic supplementation for 4 weeks. This flies in the face of the general advice most Lyme practitioners would give.
Posted 3/17/2023 5:27 PM (GMT 0)
“The results of this study suggest that doing nothing after an abx course is superior to probiotic supplementation for 4 weeks”

Yikes!

Question: What would the colon look like - ie a Dr doing a colonoscopy - would he/she see damage or…?
Posted 3/17/2023 5:39 PM (GMT 0)
yep Lymie - that's the study i was referring to that showed more disruption of the microbiome and for longer after abx, when probiotics were taken alongside - not less - so the complete opposite of what we have been told by the so-called experts for years.

i think he did a podcast episode with the study author - which is worth a listen
my take on it is we are still just at the beginning of understanding the gut microbiome - so many claims will be shown to be false when better science - like the study here which was very well done - come out

there is another argument for taking probiotics with abx though - that is that this helps prevent C-Diff - i think the data is still pretty robust in favour of probiotics.

the other thought i had about the microbiome and abx - is that as a species - although abx are alien to us evolutionarily speaking - other things would have disrupted our microbiomes in our ancestral past - things like viruses wiping out much of our gut, food poisoning and diahorrhea like illnesses would have been common, maybe things like purges and other tribal practices, extended fasting etc etc

so i think it reasonable to assume that the human animal has in built mechanisms to establish the flauta and fauna in our gut to something representing a healthy / symbiotic state after such disturbances - if given the right circumstances. otherwise its a fair bet we wouldn't be around to discuss it today.

perhaps this last point is therefore the key.
and that today with
-our ultra processed food diets - (vs totally un processed of the past )
-our obsession with antimicrobial hand wash, body wash, detergent, sprays, etc (vs no detergents at all)
-our living almost completely away from the land - (vs living off the land)
-our living in increasing isolation (vs acquiring and sharing our gut microbiota with everyone in our village - yep - that's where we get them from...)

so we have both a poor environment to repopulate with a good mix of beneficial microbes (poor food for beneficial microbes) - and far fewer sources of such microbes - in our increasingly distorted microbial environment

so, it could be more lifestyle and environmental factors that drive the long term outcomes, by making it v difficult to repopulate the gut naturally after a disturbing event, rather than the antibiotics themselves
Posted 3/17/2023 5:52 PM (GMT 0)

Girlie said...
“The results of this study suggest that doing nothing after an abx course is superior to probiotic supplementation for 4 weeks”

Yikes!

Question: What would the colon look like - ie a Dr doing a colonoscopy - would he/she see damage or…?

in most functional gut disorders - which tend to be the things driven by imbalanced gut microbiota - there is relatively little to see in the large intestine / colon ( unless you have colitis or IBD - which are a bit more serious)
this bit of the digestive system is generally less reactive and thicker than the small intestine - as its designed as a fermenting vessel to breed bacteria that ferment indigestible fibre etc and extract more calories from it that way - along with some beneficial compounds like short chain fatty acids, b vitamins etc etc
the small intestine is much more delicate - has all the tiny villi protruding into it to absorb nutrients via the very fine single cell thick permeable membrane. this part of the digestive system is designed to have very low bacterial counts in it ( compared to the colon ) its supposed to simply absorb food without microbes first breaking it down ( fermenting) its much more reactive to microbes - as they are in close contact with - or even passing through the membrane into the blood stream - eg in leaky gut ) designed to have.

its often not possible for the colonoscopy to navigate this far in to take samples - but even when they do - in people with IBS etc - there is not much to see ( i had one and it came back as nothing to see here despite significant ongoing gut issues)
instead what's happening in dysbiosis is more of a low level inflammation, gut permeability changes and systemic reactions to things floating around in the blood stream that should not be there - rathe than gross damage to the tissues that would show up on a biopsy.

the people that do colonoscopies are really gastroenterologists - who are basically surgeons specialising in the gut - so they are really only interested in big physical plumbing problems that they can fix with surgery.
so with anything like dysbiosis, IBS, sibo etc they will give you a quick check - pronounce all the plumbing structurally in order and discharge you with a note saying "functional disorder" - again i have been through it.

tests for gut permeability, inflammatory markers, bacterial metabolites in urine and breath tests for gases that should not be there can be used to show up dysbiosis
Posted 3/17/2023 6:37 PM (GMT 0)
Have had a few colonoscopies already - my mom died of colon cancer at 55 years old.
Diagnosed at 54 - lasted a year.
There is family history - her Aunt had died of it as well.
Ny mom never had colonoscopies - they could have saved her life. From the generation - “if it ain’t broke ….”
My colonoscopies showed polyps - that if left could turn into cancer.
Posted 3/18/2023 12:28 AM (GMT 0)
Long term antibiotics did not destroy my gut.

I got bowel problems from bartonella, and from adrenal stress and HPA dysfunction.

Eliminating the bartonella infection with antibiotics improved things greatly.

I am still struggling with a borrelia infection, but borrelia does not seem to affect bowel function much, aside from stressing my adrenals. I can treat the adrenal problem with hydrocortisone and low dose naltrexone, and this has largely resolved the GI problems.

Minocycline definitely did give me diarrhea. The problem is that mino lasts long enough that there would still be enough left the next day that I would get diarrhea even if I took probiotics. I didn't have as much trouble with antibiotics with shorter half-lives. However, minocycline is one of the more effective drugs for treating bartonella so I took it anyway.

Probiotics helped, but it wasn't a huge difference. The diarrhea would clear up after a few days even if I skipped the probiotics.
Posted 3/19/2023 9:20 PM (GMT 0)

Lymie24 said...
This conversation got me interested in the dynamics of taking probiotics during or after courses of antibiotics. I am not nearly as read up as others here, such as Garzie, however I found this article the Kresser Institute that shows that the intuition of probiotics during and after antibiotic therapy being a good thing is not necessarily correct. I'll link the article here then go into a few specifics from it.

https://chriskresser.com/are-probiotics-useless-heres-a-microbiome-researchers-perspective/

I would recommend reading the whole article. It goes into studies that show evidence that probiotics don't necessarily colonize the GI tract in all humans. In a 15 person study they found that 6 people were able to colonize with probiotics while 9 were not. However, this study and studies in mice show that probiotics do influence the host's immune system even if the effects are transient. While that may be disappointin for Lyme sufferers and users of antibiotics it probably is a good thing. Your normal unadulterated microbiome protects you from overgrowth of microbes. Your gut is trying to maintain homeostasis. I'd rather my gut maintain that homeostasis than run wild with an invasive microbe.

Now to the really interesting stuff. I'd highly recommend reading, at the very least, findings 5, 6, and 7. To sum it up, Israeli scientists performed an experiment on mice and humans using different intervention strategies after a course of abx. They gave ciprofloxacin and metronidazole to mice for 14 days and the same abx in humans for 7 days. There were three groups.

Group 1: Did nothing after abx
Group 2: Supplemented with an 11-strain probiotic (5 billion cfu of Lacto and Bifido) (No spore or Saccho B strains) for 4 weeks after abx course
Group 3: Had a poop sample taken before their abx course and had an FMT done, using their pre-abx poop, the day after they finished abx.

The results are astonishing IMO. The mice who were provided probiotics had a " probiotic supplementation significantly delayed the return to baseline microbiome richness, even compared to spontaneous recovery, and that several taxa were slower to return to baseline."

In humans? The authors of the paper write:

“…probiotics-consuming individuals did not return to their baseline stool microbiome configuration by the end of the intervention period (day 28), and dysbiosis was maintained even 5 months after probiotics cessation, with all stool samples collected through day 180 remaining significantly different from baseline.

Finding # 6 shows that Lactobacillus most strongly inhibited a return the baseline microbiome levels.

Finding #7 shows that those who did the aFMT (reinoculating youself with your pre-abx poop) had the most significant and quickest recovery. Quote from the article:

"In humans, the fecal microbiota had recovered to baseline composition as early as one day after aFMT!"

How insane! Unfortunately, it is far too late for most Lymies to pursue this path, but it does add credence, IMO, that FMTs could help Lyme patients after they are done with their abx courses. Of course, the problem with FMTs is the potential side effects of introducing someone else's poop into your body. Not every microbe in a person's poop can be accounted for and you won't know for certain how your body will react to another person's poop microbe's until the procedure has been done.

The results of this study suggest that doing nothing after an abx course is superior to probiotic supplementation for 4 weeks. This flies in the face of the general advice most Lyme practitioners would give.

My cousin had to stop playing soccer and college because of lyme and was kind of bed bound because she ended up getting c-diff. She did get the FMT.and used her best friend to do it. It grossed me out . She now works 10 hr shifts at a daycare and even drinks alcohol. Guess she's better. What else she did for abx I'm not sure. She was on abx maybe for 2 years. I know others who had c.diff without abx use which is odd.
Posted 3/19/2023 9:29 PM (GMT 0)
I want to throw out there that after years of gut issues that even landed me in the er, I had a colonoscopy and endoscopy done at the same time and it showed literally nothing, as I was left in horror not knowing how someone could have that many gut issues with normal tests. I even get pancreatitis and was told all is good. Normal gallbladder function supposedly after my HIDA scan they said it functioned fine,.despite me eating greasy or fat foods, then cramping with diareah and oily floating stools which sound like gallbladder or pancreatitis to me. Sibo test was negative but me and my llmd think that's bs. IBS was my only diagnosis so far. Probiotics didn't do much ever. I'm literally shedding mucousal lining in my crap, it looks like a long stringy thing attacked to your poop. It's definitely some type of inflammation. I definitely have fat malabsorption my doc says but from what ? Kefir did me a little good but tbh it had too many grams of sugar , I think 26g to be exact so I stopped taking kefir. I'm terrified to be an unlucky one to get c diff... how to repair the gut while on abx though ? Tbh while on abx years ago, I literally crapped myself outside and it was totally embarrassing. These are loose stools that you don't even feel about to happen. It was like my muscles went numb and it was like involuntary pooping. Is that possible for lyme to make those muscles weak and have accidents like peeing and pooping yourself ? I also believe the abx made me like that because this didn't happen before the abx . I sometimes often think loads of my gut issues are due more to bartonella rather then the gut microbiome or abx itself. Anyone else?
Posted 3/19/2023 10:12 PM (GMT 0)
I did get diarrhea from the xylitol that was part of my protocol.
But not from the abx.

Can you get sugarless kefir?
Or make your own?
Posted 3/20/2023 6:01 PM (GMT 0)

MedicalNerd said...

Lymie24 said...
This conversation got me interested in the dynamics of taking probiotics during or after courses of antibiotics. I am not nearly as read up as others here, such as Garzie, however I found this article the Kresser Institute that shows that the intuition of probiotics during and after antibiotic therapy being a good thing is not necessarily correct. I'll link the article here then go into a few specifics from it.

https://chriskresser.com/are-probiotics-useless-heres-a-microbiome-researchers-perspective/

I would recommend reading the whole article. It goes into studies that show evidence that probiotics don't necessarily colonize the GI tract in all humans. In a 15 person study they found that 6 people were able to colonize with probiotics while 9 were not. However, this study and studies in mice show that probiotics do influence the host's immune system even if the effects are transient. While that may be disappointin for Lyme sufferers and users of antibiotics it probably is a good thing. Your normal unadulterated microbiome protects you from overgrowth of microbes. Your gut is trying to maintain homeostasis. I'd rather my gut maintain that homeostasis than run wild with an invasive microbe.

Now to the really interesting stuff. I'd highly recommend reading, at the very least, findings 5, 6, and 7. To sum it up, Israeli scientists performed an experiment on mice and humans using different intervention strategies after a course of abx. They gave ciprofloxacin and metronidazole to mice for 14 days and the same abx in humans for 7 days. There were three groups.

Group 1: Did nothing after abx
Group 2: Supplemented with an 11-strain probiotic (5 billion cfu of Lacto and Bifido) (No spore or Saccho B strains) for 4 weeks after abx course
Group 3: Had a poop sample taken before their abx course and had an FMT done, using their pre-abx poop, the day after they finished abx.

The results are astonishing IMO. The mice who were provided probiotics had a " probiotic supplementation significantly delayed the return to baseline microbiome richness, even compared to spontaneous recovery, and that several taxa were slower to return to baseline."

In humans? The authors of the paper write:

“…probiotics-consuming individuals did not return to their baseline stool microbiome configuration by the end of the intervention period (day 28), and dysbiosis was maintained even 5 months after probiotics cessation, with all stool samples collected through day 180 remaining significantly different from baseline.

Finding # 6 shows that Lactobacillus most strongly inhibited a return the baseline microbiome levels.

Finding #7 shows that those who did the aFMT (reinoculating youself with your pre-abx poop) had the most significant and quickest recovery. Quote from the article:

"In humans, the fecal microbiota had recovered to baseline composition as early as one day after aFMT!"

How insane! Unfortunately, it is far too late for most Lymies to pursue this path, but it does add credence, IMO, that FMTs could help Lyme patients after they are done with their abx courses. Of course, the problem with FMTs is the potential side effects of introducing someone else's poop into your body. Not every microbe in a person's poop can be accounted for and you won't know for certain how your body will react to another person's poop microbe's until the procedure has been done.

The results of this study suggest that doing nothing after an abx course is superior to probiotic supplementation for 4 weeks. This flies in the face of the general advice most Lyme practitioners would give.

My cousin had to stop playing soccer and college because of lyme and was kind of bed bound because she ended up getting c-diff. She did get the FMT.and used her best friend to do it. It grossed me out . She now works 10 hr shifts at a daycare and even drinks alcohol. Guess she's better. What else she did for abx I'm not sure. She was on abx maybe for 2 years. I know others who had c.diff without abx use which is odd.

I'm glad your cousin is better. The article talks about how it statistically it would take 13 people taking probiotics during antibiotic treatment to prevent diarrhea. The person who wrote this article says they would not take a probiotic based on this info and the evidence from the study. The problem is I'm assuming this is based on people taking short courses of abx like the 7 days mentioned in the experiment out of Israel. On long term abx for Lyme I would lean towards the LLMDs who put their patients on probiotics to prevent diarrhea or C-diff. I think this study out of Israel is more relevant on strategies post-abx.
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