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Colchicine and Buhner herbs

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Posted 6/4/2023 5:35 PM (GMT 0)
Colchicine seems to have a lot of interactions with other medicine. Is it safe to take with Sida Acuta, Japanese knotweed & Houttuynia?
I have pericarditis and I have to take it six months. I'd rather take curcumin and other anti-inflammatory supplements but not sure if that would work as well. The heart is not something to mess around with.
Posted 6/4/2023 6:17 PM (GMT 0)
unfortunately, i doubt any one really knows the interactions between colchicine and those herbs - as its v unlikely to have been studied

none of the herbs seem to have extreme effects on the liver which is what drives most interactions - but colchicine is as far as i know a rather tricky substance as from what i recall reading the useful doses are a bit close to the toxic dose.

i didn't know colchicine was used for pericarditis

the interactions checker here might throw up some clues
https://www.drugs.com/interactions-check.php?drug_list=1665-6337,728-0&types%5b%5d
Posted 6/4/2023 6:36 PM (GMT 0)
Yeah, it's hard finding a lot of data on the Lyme herbs. I was more hoping someone here had to take it in the past and was okay on it.
Posted 6/9/2023 8:38 PM (GMT 0)
I took colchicine for pericarditis last summer. I was fine on it, and I actually was on some herbs, Japanese knotweed andrographis and cordyceps. The pericarditis felt exactly like being reinfected with Lyme, so that's why I was taking the supplements.

My symptoms gradually went away, but they did recur when I got covid again this year--I think it was covid causing the symptoms all along, my lyme test was negative.

The colchicine was fine for me, I did get some pain in my upper right abdomen but it went away as soon as I stopped.

The colchicine seemed to help, and I got back to normal pretty quick, except it took a while to get back into shape after doing no exercise for 3 months.
Posted 6/9/2023 8:41 PM (GMT 0)
**for the record, I am pretty sure I was taking Lyme herbs at the time, but I can't remember for sure.
Posted 6/9/2023 8:56 PM (GMT 0)
The leaflet seems to indicate it's only harmful when it's strong inhibitor and your kidneys / liver are weak so I guess it's gonna be fine.

Did you have gut problems? Kinda worried about that since I've just done a fecal transplant and I fear it will be a waste of money if I destroy my gut again.
Posted 6/9/2023 10:10 PM (GMT 0)
The colchicine didn't do much to my gut, just maybe some loose stools. The high dose ibuprofen affected my stomach a lot more. I used to have a lot of gut problems, but not some many now. Colchicine and other anti inflammatory drugs don't kill off good bacteria like antibiotics do, they just irritate your stomach a little. You will probably be fine.
Posted 6/9/2023 10:20 PM (GMT 0)
Did colchicine also help with Lyme symptoms?
Posted 6/9/2023 10:52 PM (GMT 0)
I think it was actually covid, not Lyme causing my symptoms.

My pericarditis did clear up though
Posted 6/13/2023 8:36 PM (GMT 0)
I think the colchicine is interacting with Sida Acuta.

My Bartonella symptoms are flaring up. At least, I hope it's Bartonella. Because colchicine is also lowering my cortisol and I feel my immune system being weakened. It's very concerning. :s
I don't want Lyme to start being a problem again. But I feel joint pain, among other things, and I don't know why.

Also doesn't make much sense that a medicine for arthritis is making my joints hurt. :p
Posted 6/13/2023 9:46 PM (GMT 0)
colchicine has some powerful antimicrobial properties

i think it was rickettsia or Ehrlichia or one of the other co-infections buhner writes about using it for - i think he wrote it was pretty effective - just the most effective doses were near to the toxicity dose - so he did not promote it much for this reason

all of these organisms are closely related to bartonella - ie in the alpha proteobacteria group

so it makes sense to me that you would get increase symptoms ( ie herx like reaction ) from adding it to your protocol alongside sida

at least that would be my best guess

many compounds - especially older ones - have lost of parallel effects - ie not just an arthritis medication - but antimicrobial also - and effects on the liver etc etc
Posted 6/13/2023 10:01 PM (GMT 0)
Ah, interesting.
I'm having eye pressure, shin pain, foot sole pain. All Bartonella symptoms.

So instead of a bad thing it's a good thing.
Kill all the bugs. :D :p
Posted 6/14/2023 4:00 PM (GMT 0)

Vimzor said...

So instead of a bad thing it's a good thing.
Kill all the bugs. :D :p

yeah - in principle - but steady as she goes -

many people with Bart in particular find they have to moderate treatment as otherwise the herx / die off reactions (or whatever they are) become too much
Posted 6/14/2023 8:15 PM (GMT 0)
Hmm, I'm very dizzy now and I'm having heart palpitations. Dizziness is more a Babesia symptom. Which Sida Acuta als hits. So maybe it is also the Sida Acuta being influenced by the Colchicine.

So annoying when you have these weird symptoms and no one knows what's going on.
Posted 6/14/2023 8:31 PM (GMT 0)
dizzy can be caused by any of them - or herhiemer reactions in general
as can heart palps

i would not read too much into it

most likely herx is all -

yes the combination of colchicine with sida could well be synergistic as an antimicrobial

i would just ease off on the dose to keep it manageable - and work up over time
Posted 6/23/2023 2:33 PM (GMT 0)
Is light sensitivity a Bartonella symptom or a Lyme one?
Since taking colchicine I'm becoming sensitive to light again.

I'm still extremely worried colchine is undermining my immune system and Lyme is reappearing.
If it's a herx, that's fine. But I've never had a herx with this symptom.

My light sensitivity hasn't been a thing in almost 10 years.... Kinda freaking out about it.
But I can't stop the colchicine because my heart is still not okay.
There's even some fibrosis according to the mri. sad

There are no good options here it seems.
Posted 6/23/2023 4:54 PM (GMT 0)
i find it interesting that there are 3 or 4 members currently active on here at the moment with chest pain symptoms or diagnosed pericarditis.

over the years its been very common to hear of people with palpitations and arrhythmias of various sorts - and heart block is the typical cardiac presentation of Lyme ( not the only one - but the most common one cited in the literature ) - whereas persistent chest pain and diagnosed pericarditis has not been so common

it makes me wonder if this is more a post covid thing - rather than a lyme or bart driven thing - maybe after several bouts - as seems to be the case for me.

post viral pericarditis has been a known phenomenon for many years - my brother had a serious case of it only a year of so ago - again following an unknown respiratory virus - typically a few weeks after the main symptoms subside the pericarditis flares up.

covid is known to have particular propensity to cause cardiac symptoms

"Here we used national healthcare databases from the US Department of Veterans Affairs to build a cohort of 153,760 individuals with COVID-19, as well as two sets of control cohorts with 5,637,647 (contemporary controls) and 5,859,411 (historical controls) individuals, to estimate risks and 1-year burdens of a set of pre-specified incident cardiovascular outcomes. We show that, beyond the first 30 days after infection, individuals with COVID-19 are at increased risk of incident cardiovascular disease spanning several categories,
including cerebrovascular disorders, dysrhythmias, ischemic and non-ischemic heart disease, pericarditis, myocarditis, heart failure and thromboembolic disease."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01689-3.pdf
Posted 6/23/2023 5:04 PM (GMT 0)
Mine is caused by the vaccine & covid. First pain was after the vaccine, then more pain every time I had covid (5 times now).
Posted 6/23/2023 5:34 PM (GMT 0)
i wonder is its a case of ongoing infection in localised tissues - like the heart - or just some immune activation left over

the fact that the pain for you started after the vaccine - tends to point to wards maybe the latter

i have not been vaccinated - was just starting my recovery at that time and didn't want to put a spanner in the works - had covid 3 times at least - but milder each time - however this pain started after the 2nd time and then got much worse with the 3rd time - - even though the virus was mild - after that i had waves of chest pain in the night - waking me up - with nausea and pain down my left arm - v scary
had to go to A&E to get checked out

now the severe chest pains have faded away ( oddly they were coming every 2 weeks like clockwork - immune cycles i think - slightly less severe each time) - but the constant stitch like ache in my left chest / heart area is constant now - not relived by nitroglycerine - so not angina

i also feel hot and sweaty and just unwell all the time - more so than usual for me

i was also ramping up oil of oregano when this kicked in and having some fairy strong herx from it - and think al the inflammation caused by the herx may have been part of the trigger - as it defo got worse whenever i stepped up the dosage

so it could in fact be multifactorial - covid, herx and underlying lyme/bart

so far nothing much has seemed to help - and i am still waiting for an appt with a cardiologist
Posted 6/23/2023 5:46 PM (GMT 0)
ps - Pericarditis is estimated to affect about 28 individuals per 100,000 in the general population every year.
that paper above found only a 2x increase in 12 month risk of pericarditis and other inflammatory conditions of the heart in their large cohort. so that would be somewhere in the region of 50 per100,000 per year

whereas our little anecdotal sample on the forum here is something like 3 or 4 out of 50-100 active members. which is way way above that (around 4,000 per 100,000 - a number nearly 100x greater) so my guess is the driver is a combined effect of COVID with lyme / bart driving the rate up - which seems reasonable given both lyme and bart have the ability to infect heart tissue themselves.

i think it might be worth trying antibiotics for lyme - especially the gentler and more anti-inflammatory ones like doxy .....
on the basis of this - it could well be that if you can drive down the bacterial load - the immune system is much more likely to settle down and stop attacking the heart.
Posted 6/26/2023 2:13 PM (GMT 0)
I'm having issues with getting rid of a covid infection since 2020. The heart pain is always linked to a flare up of my covid symptoms.
And yes, when I accidentally raise my Bartonella herbs, my heart hurts more. Probably because there is more inflammation everywhere.

But I'm having a really big problem now. I do not believe I'm herxing, I think the colchicine is undermining my immune system and so many symptoms are returning.

I'm becoming sensitive to light again and I'm starting to panic. I want to stop taking colchicine but I don't know what to do instead. There is already some scar tissue on my heart now. sad Stopping might make it worse and lead to another pericarditis / myocarditis attack. Worst case is this can turn into heart failure. :|

But not stopping is making the Lyme / Bartonella worse. Things were finally manageable, I don't wanna go back to my darkest days. sad

I also can't take NSAIDS.
I wanna try curcumin but not sure what other natural anti-inflammatory herbs there are. Or other things that can help with heart health.

I'm also getting heart flutters / palpitations / feeling out of breath. I don't know what's causing it. Is it Bartonella returning? Is it covid? Or is it permanent heart damage? I don't know and it's very scary. I also don't know if light sensitivity is a Bartonella or Lyme symptom.

Won't see my cardiologist for another two weeks.

It's starting to feel hopeless. I feel overwhelmed by this cascade of problems.

Post Edited (Vimzor) : 6/26/2023 6:18:50 AM (GMT-8)

Posted 6/26/2023 4:51 PM (GMT 0)
anything with the heart is scary - i am going through similar myself at the moment and i know how it feels - on top of the usual lyme stuff it can be overwhelming

but, i would say though that loads of people here get palpitations and v v few have serious / life threatening issues from it - so while it still needs to be checked out - its something that comes and goes for loads of people with lyme and rarely turns into anything v serious

the myocarditis and pericarditis are slightly more concerning - i am waiting to get that evaluated myself

i would say - if the flares of pain become concerning - just go to ER and get checked out - that's all you can do
they will not let you out again until they are satisfied you will not keel over after leaving
i was told that if i had pain lasting more than 20mins that was not resolved by taking nitro-glycerine spray - then i should go to ER - so i would guess the same applies

pericarditis only really seems to cause and acute problem if there is pericardial effusion ( the sack around the heart fills with too much liquid and causes the heart to struggle to maintain blood pressure)
there are common signs to watch for
Shortness of breath or difficulty breathing (dyspnea)
Discomfort when breathing while lying down
Chest pain, usually behind the breastbone or on the left side of the chest
Chest fullness
Lightheadedness or feeling faint
Swelling in the abdomen or legs
some say the jugular can become distended - and there can be a drop in blood pressure when inhaling

bart or lyme or any infection that causes inflammation in the brain can cause light and sound sensitivity

curcumin is a decent natural anti-inflammatory so i would say that cannot do any harm

hawthorn is used for all types of heart conditions and there are plenty of papers supporting its effects

vitamin C and Omega 3's are general recommended for recovery from pericarditis

magnesium can help calm palpitations a little

but overall if its COVID or Lyme driven - largely its the immune reaction that is driving the inflammation as much as the actual infection

so it may be worth investigating some of the treatments that are used for long covid to try to resolve the drivers
-Ivermectin comes to mind - but there are others

eg https://covid19criticalcare.com/protocol/i-recover-long-covid-treatment/
Posted 6/26/2023 4:54 PM (GMT 0)
BTW - i came across this interesting article by Dr SP - that postulates something along the lines of what we were discussing above - a combined effect of multiple concurrent infections + environmental factors and individual genetics driving risk for heart complications.

his father had full on heart failure and was told he needed heart transplant due to lyme - later completely recovered after antibiotics - lived to around 90

https://zerospin.substack.com/p/heart-failure-infection-and-a-medical
Posted 6/26/2023 5:06 PM (GMT 0)
I'm not worried about dying. Well, I am :p but that's not the issue now. I'm worried about permanent heart damage:

My cardiac MRI results: (machine translated from Dutch)

MRI Scanner said...
Findings 1.Morphological. Normal cor volume. Normal appearance of the visualized large mediastinal and hilar vessels.
2.Functional Global (mbv Neosoft). LV EF51% SV91ml EDV179ml ESV88ml mass101g RV EF50% SV86ml EDV172ml ESV86ml Minimal prolapse of the anterior mitral valve leaflet with limited sclerosis. For assessment of valve referred to currently esophageal ultrasound. No evident significant valve leakage demonstrable.
3.Tissue characterization. 3.1.T1 mapping myocardium : (Noesoft/Syngovia) native : SA global basal midcavitary and apical (Neosoft) respectively a 1028 1017 and 1027 ms Homogeneous shortening of T1 relaxation times postcontrast. ECV calculated from Hc 42 determined on 18/6/2023 SA global basal midcavitary and apical (Neosoft) 29 29 and 29 respectively. 8 percent 3.2 T2 mapping/T2 STIR SA global basal midcavitary and apical (Neosoft) 45 46 and 47 ms Normal T2 relaxation times of the myocardium in various segments, respectively. No evidence of myocardial edema on the T2 STIR recordings.
3.3 late Gd : Reserve for subepicardial contrast capture in the basal inferolateral area (segment 5 and transition 4 5).

DECISION Reserve for zone of sub epicardial fibrosis in the basal inferolateral area as described above; may fit a sequel of myocarditis. Minimal prolapse of the anterior mitral valve leaflet with limited sclerosis. For assessment of the mitral valve, refer to currently esophageal ultrasound.

It's the fibrosis that has me extremely worried. I won't fully know how bad that is until I talk to my cardiologist.
The mitral valve prolapse is caused by Lyme but I already knew that.

Ivermectin is a 3CL protease inhibitor. My covid has become resistant to that. sad I ordered sofosbuvir on indiamart and had it shipped to London. (My country would confiscate the shipment at customs) I will have to go there and pick it up. But now I'm worried walking a lot will make my heart worse.
Sofosbuvir should work against covid, several people have been cured by it. Althought it's still a gamble.

I'm also reluctant to take antibiotics (mino, anti-inflammatory) again because I recently did a fecal transplant. Will have been a waste of money otherwise.

Post Edited (Vimzor) : 6/26/2023 9:09:39 AM (GMT-8)

Posted 6/26/2023 5:11 PM (GMT 0)
Btw, only a cardiac mri scan can fully rule out myocarditis. Echo can be perfectly normal.
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