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What is causing this herx?

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Posted 8/9/2023 8:01 AM (GMT 0)
I started a new supplement stack two days ago to address cardiac symptoms that had largely been resolved with Lyme treatment, but had returned (with a vengeance) after my second covid infection last year.

I did not think I was taking any supplements with antimicrobial properties, so therefore was quite surprised to experience what felt like a fairly strong herx. It was in line with what I experienced while on full treatment for Lyme (and coinfections) - general malaise and a feeling of being unwell, paired with a rather severe headache (which for me is unusual).

Is there anything in this stack that might have triggered a herx?

Taurine
Ginkgo biloba
CoQ10
Citrulline
Glycine
Acetyl L Carnitine
Berberine
Hawthorn
L arginine
Tryptophan

For reference, I have/had lab-confirmed Lyme, bartonella, toxoplasmosis and c. pneumonia, and possibly babesiosis (negative test, but symptom and exposure history indicative of likely infection).
Posted 8/9/2023 10:32 AM (GMT 0)
Berberine is a powerful antimicrobial - typically used for gut infections or topically but does have some systemic effects - esp in high doses. it gave me powerful herx effects

PS i also developed cardiac symptoms after COVID - had a hart like an ox before this
several others here with lyme / bart report the same -
i tried to start a poll to try and understand just how common thsi was but had low / no participation
Posted 8/9/2023 10:55 AM (GMT 0)
Buhner recommends Hawthorne for Bart.

Not Sure because of the Heart issues or If Hawthorne actually attacks the Bart.

Might be also worth looking into
Posted 8/9/2023 11:38 AM (GMT 0)
Buhner's section on hawthorn is quite interesting

it seems it has various effects on the heart - increasing microcirculation, slowing the pulse, lowering blood pressure - its seems its acting at the molecular level to improve heart efficiency and reduce stress in the tissues - poss due to the antioxidant effects of oligomeric procyandins - which are thought to be one of the main active constituents - Buhner prescribes it more as "Organ support"

as far as i know it does not have any potent antimicrobial properties ( although almost all plants have some ) Buhner makes no mention as far as i recall
Posted 8/9/2023 12:45 PM (GMT 0)
Thanks to both of you. I learned about hawthorn from Buhner, but didn't realize it was specifically recommended for bartonella. Interesting indeed.

I also didn't realize berberine was antimicrobial... that could be part of it, though I took it today (but eliminated almost everything else) and felt mostly better. I'll add things in piecemeal to see if I can find the main trigger(s).

What kind of cardiac issues did you have, Garzie? I had hypertension and tachycardia initially, and palpitations. The first two thankfully resolved after a few months (though I'm still taking low dose propranolol), but the palpitations only seemed to worsen over time. It felt like afib, based on what I've read, but it never occurred during an ECG so I can't say for certain. Taurine has helped tremendously.

It definitely seems like covid regularly causes cardiac issues, though in my case it's hard to say if it was covid itself or a Lyme-related relapse. Maybe both.
Posted 8/9/2023 12:51 PM (GMT 0)
Berberine can kill stuff in the gut. I believe it is often used in anti-parasitic and anti-fungal formulas. Malaise, headaches, and feeling sick can be from hitting something in the gut. Did you experience any intestinal issues or change in bowel functioning?
Posted 8/9/2023 2:58 PM (GMT 0)
Now that you mention it, yes, plus some light nausea.

I had no idea it had those properties... Thanks for sharing.
Posted 8/9/2023 2:59 PM (GMT 0)
Another vote for it probably being berberine from me.
Posted 8/9/2023 3:42 PM (GMT 0)
I have been looking in amino acids and found this:

The l-arginine may be interfering with some of the other items on your list such as the Ginkgo biloba
CoQ10

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/l-arginine

Also I read that Acetyl L Carnitine can cause headaches.

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-834/acetyl-l-carnitine

2 Chronicles 7:14

Post Edited (MyJourney101) : 8/17/2023 4:06:11 AM (GMT-8)

Posted 8/10/2023 12:29 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks for sharing that - I will look into it, and likely remove arginine, or perhaps stagger it.

FWIW, I have taken l-carnitine in the past (though not with these other supplements) without getting headaches.

The headache felt like a severe caffeine withdrawal headache, which is actually caused by a resumption of normal blood flow to the head (caffeine is a vasoconstrictor). My theory is that the supplement combo was improving blood flow to my brain, which resulted in the same phenomenon.

The rest felt like one of my standard herxes.
Posted 8/10/2023 1:06 AM (GMT 0)

MyJourney101 said...
I have been looking in amino acids and found this:
The l-arginine may be interfering with some of the other items on your list such as the Ginkgo biloba
CoQ10

The effect appears to be compounding:

https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/natural/875.html#HerbInteractions
Posted 8/10/2023 1:49 AM (GMT 0)
Yes, it does appear that way.

I’m taking L-glutamine…only 5 grams a day…it has a lot of health benefits & I am trying to heal suspected leaky gut.

So far it hasn’t interfered with the herbs and supplements I’m on: Cryptolepis, Black Walnut Woodworm with clove extract & sweet annie, etc.
Posted 8/10/2023 2:22 AM (GMT 0)

Scroggins said...
I started a new supplement stack two days ago to address cardiac symptoms that had largely been resolved with Lyme treatment, but had returned (with a vengeance) after my second covid infection last year.

I did not think I was taking any supplements with antimicrobial properties, so therefore was quite surprised to experience what felt like a fairly strong herx. It was in line with what I experienced while on full treatment for Lyme (and coinfections) - general malaise and a feeling of being unwell, paired with a rather severe headache (which for me is unusual).

Is there anything in this stack that might have triggered a herx?

Taurine
Ginkgo biloba
CoQ10
Citrulline
Glycine
Acetyl L Carnitine
Berberine
Hawthorn
L arginine
Tryptophan

For reference, I have/had lab-confirmed Lyme, bartonella, toxoplasmosis and c. pneumonia, and possibly babesiosis (negative test, but symptom and exposure history indicative of likely infection).

It can be the ginkgo biloba because I thought it was used as an immune modulator my.llmd told me ? Also can be the l- arginine especially if u have herpes virus it can reactivate it with some symptoms being feeling ill and causing brain swelling or inflamed meringues which cause severe headaches or migraines.
Posted 8/10/2023 8:01 AM (GMT 0)
Thanks. So I guess there are multiple possible factors, possibly even a synergistic effect. I've stripped it down and am adding things in one by one.
Posted 8/10/2023 10:35 AM (GMT 0)
l-glutamine gave me headaches - they were quite pronounced - i had to stop taking it
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