Pulsing antibiotics

Does it make sense to take biofilm busters when pulsing antibiotics? As I understand it the pulsing kinda acts as a biofilm buster by making the bacteria feel safe and so they come out of hiding again. Very simplified explanation. :p

yep - defo take biofilm agents - pulsing is thought to stress borrelia more than constant dosing - due to some suspected damage / cost to the bacteria from them repeatedly going into persister state and back again - but this is so far only demonstrated in one in vitro trial - and the mechanisms are so far not well understood - i would consider it very separate to biofilm busting agents.

we dont know if the same effect is present in other biofilm forming bacterial infections yet - eg bartonella - so again - makes sense to use biofilm busting agents

the other reason LLMDs use pulsing - is that its a bit easier on the patients, is cheaper for the patients, is less likely to cause serious drug side effects like high liver enzymes and may even be kinder to the microbiome - while still being good enough to gradually break down the infections - as they are mainly slow growing

Garzie: The the other reason LLMDs use pulsing - is that its a bit easier on the patients, is cheaper for the patients, is less likely to cause serious drug side effects like high liver enzymes and may even be kinder to the microbiome “

Yes! I could not have stuck with DrJ’s protocols - in particular the Bart/Persister’s protocols if it wasn’t pulsed.
The time off was needed - if not necessary.

I would be interested to see the full persister protocol from Dr J also Girlie

its hard to find as he doesn't publish books or journal papers like say Horowitz
even his videos at seminars seem to leave out some of the specifics
eg he mentions the drugs and the timings - but leaves out the doses

Vim - ref the herbs and pulsing - this is a good question - one we have discussed on the forum before.

in theory - if removing stressors then applying them again is doing damage to the bacteria via causing them to change state then logic would suggest that all antimicrobials should be pulsed at the same time to maximise this effect ( in the lab experiments they actually centrifuged the bacteria out of the culture medium - then physically wash off all the antibiotics - and apply fresh culture medium).

but so little is known so far about how pulsing is actually working to increase effectiveness its not fully clear
- if this effect works for all bacteria species that create persisters (probably as its a common mechanism)
-if herbs and natural antimicrobials have a similar effect as abx when pulsed (again probably - as most abx are just versions of natural antimicrobial chemicals found in the wild)
- by how much does the concentration need to be reduced before its experienced as a pulse by the persisters? ( unclear - as humans are not test tubes which can be centrifuged and washed - drugs have half lives in our systems of hrs to weeks - and concentrations drop only gradually - and also drop at different rates in different tissues - so in practice most tissues will be expected to be below say the mean inhibitory concentration for any given bacterium at a point in time - and then probably needs to drop further before the bacteria sense its safe to start replicating again - this may be as many as 10 drug half lives - so maybe a day or so for something fast like rifampicin - and maybe 1-2 weeks for something slow like azithromycin - and not typically known for many herbs).
- bacteria are also always in humans subject to attack from chemicals excreted from the cells of our immune systems - like toxic reactive oxygen compounds, antimicrobial proteins, protein dissolving enzymes and other chemicals produced by white blood cells aimed at killing bacteria. so the bacteria inside a human host are never totally "safe " or free of chemical attack (everything in nature is analogue) so there are no absolutes - only degrees. still teh evidence seems to support that degrees of pulsing are still enough to be effective - perhaps more so than continuous antibiotics.

The other element that should not be overlooked when considering pulsing is that the breaks give the host immune system a chance to recuperate in a way that constraint antibiotics - that tend to suppress immune function - do not.
in the ned the immune system has to get on top of the infection and keep it at bay in order for us to stay in remission. no antibiotics can kill every last bacteria in a human - only a well functioning immune system can do that - so this could be an important reason why these approaches work ( Dr J seems to think so ).

ref the herbs - sida and houttuynia are both v broad in terms of antimicrobial activity (almost all plant antimicrobials are as they do not know which pathogen they will have to defend against) - both mostly likely are active for lyme, as well as bart - even though some are recommended specifically for bart - eg cryptolepine in sida is active for borrelia too

cats claw is likely mainly anti-inflammatory / immune modulating rather than antispirochetal
and knotweed too in my estimation - even though there are in-vitro experiments showing it was active for borrelia - these were done adding tincture directly into the culture medium in the lab at relatively high concentrations - which is very different to you or i taking a few ml of tincture orally.

i wish we had more data on pulsing - how it works and why -
i am currently pulsing - and for the moment i am keeping all buhner lyme and bart herbs going full time - as they were helping me before the abx - and my approach is to layer effective treatments over time
this is working well for me - i am getting the hoped for small increased step of recovery from each abx pulse
but in time i may transition to pulsing everything except the anti-inflammatory / immune modulating herbs to help target the persister mechanism

hi Bhava

again - we are often extrapolating here from lab based experiments - or following LLMD's with their interpretation of how to enact the research findings in the real world - so not much on pulsing is definitive at this time

in the lab experiments i believe the bacteria began to slowly grown back after only 24 hrs with no antibiotics - but as mentioned above - this was because they could literally wash the antibiotics off the bacterial pellet and add fresh antibiotic-free medium to provide safe environment and food for the bacteria to grow unhindered. this does not happen in humans - as it takes time - many half life's of the drugs - for the drugs to get out of the system.

one of the most prominent doctors who uses pulsing as standard with all his patients (Dr J)uses the following schedule for most of his treatment
2 weeks on - dosing M/W/F - then 1 week off - then restart the following Monday
so here there are actually almost 10 days off antibiotics involved

we do not know if this is optimal - but the Dr Concerned has a very good reputation for getting people well - even those who have failed with Lyme treatment elsewhere - so it seems to work well enough.

ref the glycerine tinctures - they are likely to be much less strong - because the glycerine is a much poorer solvent vs alcohol and water - i would not advise using them.
teas are an option for some herbs - but often its hard to get sufficient dose this way - and not all herbs are suited to teas - either the extraction is poor - or the mixture reacts.

i am taking Tinidazole - ( a sister drug to metronidazole with the same potential issues with alcohol ) the way i have managed it is by mixing my tinctures the meal before i wish to take them - then pacing them in a glass on a very gentle warming pad - and evaporating the alcohol before it comes time to take them.
this works very well and i have had no reactions from even 4x tinidazole per day

i have posted before about the heating mat - its actually sold for giving reptiles in aquarium a spot to warm themselves up - so its only body heat - will not damage the tinctures - will find it and post below

Garzie said...
I would be interested to see the full persister protocol from Dr J also Girlie

its hard to find as he doesn't publish books or journal papers like say Horowitz
even his videos at seminars seem to leave out some of the specifics
eg he mentions the drugs and the timings - but leaves out the doses

Vim - ref the herbs and pulsing - this is a good question - one we have discussed on the forum before.

in theory - if removing stressors then applying them again is doing damage to the bacteria via causing them to change state then logic would suggest that all antimicrobials should be pulsed at the same time to maximise this effect ( in the lab experiments they actually centrifuged the bacteria out of the culture medium - then physically wash off all the antibiotics - and apply fresh culture medium).

but so little is known so far about how pulsing is actually working to increase effectiveness its not fully clear
- if this effect works for all bacteria species that create persisters (probably as its a common mechanism)
-if herbs and natural antimicrobials have a similar effect as abx when pulsed (again probably - as most abx are just versions of natural antimicrobial chemicals found in the wild)
- by how much does the concentration need to be reduced before its experienced as a pulse by the persisters? ( unclear - as humans are not test tubes which can be centrifuged and washed - drugs have half lives in our systems of hrs to weeks - and concentrations drop only gradually - and also drop at different rates in different tissues - so in practice most tissues will be expected to be below say the mean inhibitory concentration for any given bacterium at a point in time - and then probably needs to drop further before the bacteria sense its safe to start replicating again - this may be as many as 10 drug half lives - so maybe a day or so for something fast like rifampicin - and maybe 1-2 weeks for something slow like azithromycin - and not typically known for many herbs).
- bacteria are also always in humans subject to attack from chemicals excreted from the cells of our immune systems - like toxic reactive oxygen compounds, antimicrobial proteins, protein dissolving enzymes and other chemicals produced by white blood cells aimed at killing bacteria. so the bacteria inside a human host are never totally "safe " or free of chemical attack (everything in nature is analogue) so there are no absolutes - only degrees. still teh evidence seems to support that degrees of pulsing are still enough to be effective - perhaps more so than continuous antibiotics.

The other element that should not be overlooked when considering pulsing is that the breaks give the host immune system a chance to recuperate in a way that constraint antibiotics - that tend to suppress immune function - do not.
in the ned the immune system has to get on top of the infection and keep it at bay in order for us to stay in remission. no antibiotics can kill every last bacteria in a human - only a well functioning immune system can do that - so this could be an important reason why these approaches work ( Dr J seems to think so ).

ref the herbs - sida and houttuynia are both v broad in terms of antimicrobial activity (almost all plant antimicrobials are as they do not know which pathogen they will have to defend against) - both mostly likely are active for lyme, as well as bart - even though some are recommended specifically for bart - eg cryptolepine in sida is active for borrelia too

cats claw is likely mainly anti-inflammatory / immune modulating rather than antispirochetal
and knotweed too in my estimation - even though there are in-vitro experiments showing it was active for borrelia - these were done adding tincture directly into the culture medium in the lab at relatively high concentrations - which is very different to you or i taking a few ml of tincture orally.

i wish we had more data on pulsing - how it works and why -
i am currently pulsing - and for the moment i am keeping all buhner lyme and bart herbs going full time - as they were helping me before the abx - and my approach is to layer effective treatments over time
this is working well for me - i am getting the hoped for small increased step of recovery from each abx pulse
but in time i may transition to pulsing everything except the anti-inflammatory / immune modulating herbs to help target the persister mechanism

I will look for the paperwork as soon as I have time

Garzie said...
👍

I will post my protocol in a new thread but will not say what doc it is in case of Liability. (Which I don’t think would “fly” anyway.

I saw 3 lyme docs prior to seeing Dr J so it could be one of theirs’ protocols

“ btw the last video i saw him release - he looked like he had left a huge amount of weight - and aged a great deal - i hope he is OK - no doubt in my mind he is one of teh good guys.”

He really did need to lose weight. Good for him.

Found it

I’ll just post it here - lol

The protocol that got me well.

Week 1: Mon - Fri : Dapsone (50mg), Daraprim (50 mg), leucovorin (5mg), once daily
M/W/F: Ceftin (1000 mg) twice daily.
M/W/F: Rifabutin (150mg) twice daily.
Mon thru Friday: Cryptolepis 40 drops once daily.
Sunday - Saturday - Xylitol (2 tsp), lactoferrin (500 mg)
Fri/Sat: Flagyl (500 mg) OR Tinidazole) and Diflucan

Week 2: M/T/W: Rifabutin (150 mg) twice daily
M/T/W: Minocycline (100 mg X 2 daily)
M/T/W: Clindamycin (don't remember the dosage)
W/Th: Tinidazole (500 mg) x2 daily)

Week 3 or 4 (my choice): Alinia (don't remember the dosage) Monday-Friday

The Dapsone tabs I had were scored and I took half a tab each time.
I think the tabs were 100 mg, so mine would have been 50 mg. I suffered immensely on that protocol.
I had to postpone the week 2 meds - often starting week 2 on Wednesday instead of Monday.

Regarding bioflim. You need to make sure your protocol has abx on board after you stop with the biofilm buster.

You dont want to bust it up and have nothing to kill whatever is released.

I think Girlie's protocol shows that.

Thanks for that info on your successful protocol Girlie, very interesting, and so wonderful that you are in remission! Was that a single round of the 3 or 4 weeks or did you follow the protocol multiple times?

Everbark said...
Thanks for that info on your successful protocol Girlie, very interesting, and so wonderful that you are in remission! Was that a single round of the 3 or 4 weeks or did you follow the protocol multiple times?

I did multiple - I believe it was 6 or 7 rounds.

After that protocol I was on maintenance which was taking three abx for three days one week and three weeks off.
I slowly stretched the weeks off